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In Ceiling vs. On Wall for Atmos. Thoughts?

2Sunny

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I'm in the process of planning an audio/home theater room. The room will be multi-purpose so I'm not trying to set things up perfectly as regards home theater use, however, I had been thinking I would use 6 In Ceiling speakers for Atmos, but after watching a YouTube video by Techno Dad that the rules of the forum apparently do not allow me to link and considering my current experience with my current setup which is using On Wall versus In Ceiling, I'm leaning towards going with On Wall speakers for Atmos versus In Ceiling. The pictures below explain the basic idea.

What's your thought on this recommended speaker layout vs. In Ceiling?

Atmos.b.jpg


And this picture provides the gist of what Techno Dad was saying happens when using In Ceiling vs On Wall.


Atmos.a.jpg
 
I can't tell you what to do, I don't have Atmos (only 5.1), and I haven't studied it...

If you are building a custom home theater with "no compromises" I suppose you should follow Dolby's recommendations.

But IMO, the more speakers/channels you have, the less critical they are. It's going to be "immersive" and our ability to locate sounds is highly-imperfect anyway... Have you ever tried to find the source of a squeak or rattle in your car, or a cricket, etc." And not everybody in the room is sitting in the sweet spot.
 
Yeah I wouldn't be listening to techo dad, just because he says something does not make it gospel. I have tried the 4 heights vs on the ceiling and on ceiling sounds better to me. Heights made it a wall of sound, on ceiling made it an actual bubble from front to back, but that's just from what I heard.

Not a lot of films use 6 atmos channels so I don't think it's worth doing but I'm sure many here with 6 could chime in, maybe it sounds good with up scaling. I assume if it's something like a 7.1.2 mix then only the top middle would play during the film whereas a .4 setup would still have all 4 atmos channels playing.

As for the on-ceiling vs in-ceiling it's more about what the in ceiling speakers dispersion is like, kef have really good higher tier ones that are good from 30-50 degrees for example, or some have angle baffles and pivoting tweeters to angle them in more.
 
All I can tell you is that the people mixing movie soundtracks are following Dolby's specifications, not what some Youtuber claims.
 
I'm realizing this is a bit of a controversial issue, but it does seem from my cursory reading so far that x.x.6 does improve the Atmos effect versus x.x.4 and modern movies do in fact use 6 height channels often. Personally the fact that an idea is presented by a YouTuber doesn't detract from my wanting to learn more about the issue and understand why or why not to agree with their conclusion.

This is actually a complicated subject, so get ready for my long response. A lot is said about the angles... but the angles are actually more about the imaging between adjacent channels, NOT where the speakers should go in the room. It's important to remember that Atmos as a format is allocentric (referenced off the room itself) rather than egocentric (referenced off the listener). However, where it gets complicated is that with small room acoustics, you inherently have to take a more egocentric approach, whereas a large theater has enough room for sound to propagate (and inherently more speakers, minimizing the angular problems). Contrary to what Matthew says here, we actually DO hear phantom imaging pretty well on the vertical - just not by way of the same mechanism that we hear stereo imaging. (See "Virtual Sound Source Positioning Using Vector Based Amplitude Panning" by Ville Pulkki, "Comparison of Amplitude Panning Approaches on ITU BS.2051 Loudspeaker Layouts with Height" by Michael Romanov, NHK's research on 22.2 layouts, Wilfried Van Baelen's Auro3D research, etc.). The question is how we prioritize lower speaker counts based on where we hear better. The research generally agrees that we can hear imaging very well with a 30 degree vertical separation, slightly less so at 45 but still good, and anything over 45, people generally start losing all specificity. And that's mostly in the FRONT region of our hearing. Directly overhead, we have even less spatial resolution, and behind us (the region between ear-level and rearmost heights) even less so. Dolby is well aware of this, and you can tell if you understand how their actual Atmos renderer works under the hood (and their guides actually take this into account, which I will explain later). I'll outline several scenarios by the numbers to try to make it all clear.

1. On the lateral (side to side in your room), objects in the renderer at full height do ZERO steering from 0.0-0.25 and 0.75-1.0 coordinates. This is part of why you don't have height rows placed too widely in the room. If we were taking a strictly allocentric approach to placement, this would mean that you would always put the height rows themselves at 25% and 75% of the room's width, since that would perfectly align with the expectation of the renderer itself. HOWEVER, remember when I said that small room acoustics are inherently more egocentric? Because of this, if your seating extends outside of that middle 50% of the room laterally, you don't necessarily want the speakers to be within the seating. This is why Trinnov's guide and RP22 both advocate more for about a 40 degree separation from the side surrounds, give or take depending on the seating. But for my money, if coverage won't be compromised by putting the height rows strictly at 25%/75% the way they are in the renderer's coordinate expectation, you should generally stick with that on the lateral. (This is not supposition, by the way. This has all been tested via pre-outs using different layouts and the tests on the Spatial Audio Calibration Toolkit.) If you want the underlying logic of why Grimani shoots for the closer height row placement, this is part of it. The renderer literally does no actual steering laterally until the middle 50% of the "room" in the panner interface. This is important to keep in mind if you're shooting for an Auro-centric placement where the surround heights would be on the sidewalls above the surrounds. The height panning will inherently sound "off" laterally if you prioritize that layout over an Atmos-style layout. Trinnov/RP22's 40 degree placement strikes a balance that generally works for both formats.

2. Now that we have the lateral placement of heights out of the way, let's consider the longitudinal placement. We'll start with 4 height channels. First, we have to talk about how Dolby's speaker designations affect the rendering. Remember how laterally, there's no steering done on the left and right quarters of the room for objects at max Z? If you set your AVR/Processor to Top Front/Rear, the same buffer happens longitudinally. Objects do not get steered off of the top front/rear speakers until they are outside of that 25% buffer zone. HOWEVER, if you set the designations to Front/Rear Height, that 25% limitation is no longer applied by the renderer, and cross-channel pans will immediately start to go into the adjacent speaker. So if we were taking a strictly allocentric approach, we would actually want to do front/rear heights at the room boundaries so that the full longitudinal range of the room could be represented. You'll notice that Dolby's theaters do actually extend the height channels near those points. The problem in the home space is that in most rooms, doing this leaves a pretty large angular gap between the front/rear heights. So while you are gaining spatial resolution between the two layers at the very front and back of the room, you're losing it overhead. This is why Dolby tends to recommend that if you can only do 4 heights, you want to do top front/rear. It's an egocentric compromise to an allocentric paradigm. Accordingly, they're using the 45/135 angles, which the research shows gives a good balance between vertical imaging while still leaving the overhead close enough for generalized imaging above (which is also then made better by the standard mixing practice of moving pans through that space rather than relying on static objects in that region, with the exception of the height beds).

3. Now let's consider higher speaker counts than 4 heights. Once you go 6 heights, you'll notice that Dolby's own guides now instead show them angularly placed at 30/90/150. Or, if you look at their diagrams, front/rear height + top mid. Remember how the 25% buffer zone where no panning occurs at the front and back of the room is gone when using the front/rear height designation? This is why Dolby's x.x.6 recommendation, if you look at their guides, shows only front/rear height + top mid. This is because you no longer need that 45/135 compromise to maintain overhead resolution, because you have top mids in play to fill the gap. This is the "best of both worlds" layout, giving you cohesive vertical imaging (especially in the front), and smoother panning across the array longitudinally. Having the top mids in place also gives you a better point source for sidewall imaging of objects placed between the two layers on the side wall of Dolby's virtual panner interface. Again, none of this is supposition - people have actually tested each of these scenarios using the SACT and direct measurement of the pre-outs to see when pans start/stop during the object moves. And if you go look at actual content in an object viewer, whether Trinnov's or the YouTube channel Object Viewer, you'll be surprised at where objects are actually getting placed. Anyone who thinks there isn't content meant to image between the two layers is just dead wrong.

Now what does this all mean in practice? Here's where things get fun. The answer is: IT DEPENDS ON YOUR HEARING. Some of us hear steering between the two layers better than steering overhead. Some of us hear overhead steering better than on the vertical. To a certain extent, since pans are usually moving fairly quickly, our brains tend to fill in the gap between channels perceptually anyway... so you may not hear a difference in practice regardless of which region of the room your personal hearing tends to prioritize. If you only have 4 heights, the answer is easy - top front/rear gives you the best compromise between the two. BUT if you personally don't hear much resolution overhead anyway, a front/rear height placement may actually work better in practice for you. This is why my ultimate advice is: Go hear it both ways if you can before you do your own x.x.4 installation.

If it's x.x.6 or more that we're talking about, you actually DO want speakers to be closer to the wall/ceiling intersection from a strictly allocentric standpoint... if that placement maintains Dolby's general angular range for a front/rear height + top mid placement. But in EITHER CASE, laterally, that 25% panning buffer happens no matter what.

You talk about hearing what the mixer hears in the mix room in your own space. That gets us into what's known as the "circle of confusion"... because what layout did that mixer have? You have no way of knowing. If they were running top front/rear, they had that 25% longitudinal panning buffer in place and so they made their pans based on how that sounds in practice in their mix room (though they at least have a visual reference for the object in the panning interface that makes it work with other layouts anyway). But now, more mix rooms are using the higher speaker counts. For example, Netflix advocates a minimum layout of 7.1.6, and they tend to be mixing with a front/rear height + top mid configuration, meaning no panning buffer longitudinally. So if you set your room up based on a mix room paradigm of x.x.4, are you then hearing what the mixer heard in a x.x.6 layout? Eh... mostly. Don't get too hung up on it. But now that you know the actual logic of the renderer itself, it should help inform you as far as speaker placement that conforms such that the expectation in the renderer matches the actual point sources in the room... which is all the videos you're talking about were trying to explain. If you have any further questions, please let me know. I'll be glad to give yet another lengthy answer with more information than you ever asked for."

Atmos.Dolby.4.jpg
Atmos.Dolby.6.jpg
 
I'm realizing this is a bit of a controversial issue, but it does seem from my cursory reading so far that x.x.6 does improve the Atmos effect versus x.x.4 and modern movies do in fact use 6 height channels often. Personally the fact that an idea is presented by a YouTuber doesn't detract from my wanting to learn more about the issue and understand why or why not to agree with their conclusion.



View attachment 465817View attachment 465818
Here are some Atmos studios with 6 overhead channels:
9.1.6-dolby-atmos-studio-nashville.jpg 11.1.6-Atmos-Studio-026A1084-Edit.jpg

They follow Dolby's Overhead guide:
7_1_6_overhead_pov.webp

Edit:
I have yet to see an Atmos mastering studio with wall-mounted front heights. That seems to be a compromise for consumers.
 
If you want to reproduce the creative intent, then you should match the layout of the mastering studio as best as possible. It's that simple.

You can look up pictures of mastering studios for inspiration: https://www.google.com/search?q=dolby+atmos+mastering+studio
I certainly agree with that logic if one could reproduce a Dolby studio in home. The issue becomes what to do when your room or other issues like budget force compromises. What then creates the "best" result and is the "best" result what you personally prefer or what the artist intended or something else.
 
I certainly agree with that logic if one could reproduce a Dolby studio in home. The issue becomes what to do when your room or other issues like budget force compromises. What then creates the "best" result and is the "best" result what you personally prefer or what the artist intended or something else.
Sure. All I'm saying is that Techno Dad's argument of wall-mounted heights for accuracy has no legs to stand on when Atmos tracks aren't mastered that way.
 
You should follow the Dolby Atmos Home Entertainment Studio guidelines - they have stricter placement tolerances than the standard Dolby Atmos home setup recommendations.

On-wall height speaker placement isn’t ideal for Atmos. That approach aligns more with Auro-3D, not Atmos, which expects overhead or properly elevated speakers positioned with specific angles.

Edit: Guidelines link
 
modern movies do in fact use 6 height channels often.
This is not how Atmos height channels work. The renderer just renders the object sounds or upmixed sounds to how many channels are available in the particular setup.

Since height audio isn’t mapped to speakers, but to 3D positions, the position of the speakers should be less of an important parameter in theory. The 3D space is recreated for your particular configuration. I practice, however, an ARV does not offer very precise setup of speakers in 3D space. Especially Denon and Marantz offer few option. I think Yamaha and Sony have more advanced settings, at least in this regard. Others may as well.
 
The issue becomes what to do when your room or other issues like budget force compromises.
I'd say any cost or aesthetic choices/compromises are decisions only YOU can make for yourself. I'm VERY happy with 5.1 and mis-matched and imperfectly located speakers.

...But after I win tonight's lottery I'll get a better, more elaborate setup! :D :D :D Although I'm a dude and don't care much about interior design, for a high-end living room I'd probably prefer in-ceiling and in-wall (properly angled, etc.). For a dedicated home theater I might want to see and "celebrate" the speakers. Actually, the speakers in my living room are HUGE and look out-of-place but I LIKE the "extreme" look..

What then creates the "best" result and is the "best" result what you personally prefer or what the artist intended or something else.
If you're talking about the sound, "personal preference" is probably impractical if not impossible to determine... You'd have to try multiple setups with many movies.
 
I have yet to see an Atmos mastering studio with wall-mounted front heights. That seems to be a compromise for consumers
Which category does this Genelec project fall into?
8A23E2D0-8421-449F-8630-11D73B80BE8A.jpeg
 
Dolby makes recommendations of the vertical and horizontal angle (from the main listening position) for each speaker. Therefore the decision between ceiling and wall mounting could vary depending on ceiling height relative to room width. (In most cases ceiling is likely to be more optimal).
 
Don't know if it's true or not but Techno Dad claims the reason Dolby shows In Ceiling is only because Auro3D has a patent.


Auro3D.jpg
 
Don't know if it's true or not but Techno Dad claims the reason Dolby shows In Ceiling is only because Auro3D has a patent.


View attachment 466080

No proof of either Atmos or Auro holding patents on speakers placement. Atmos has a patent on those elevation speakers that bounce of the ceiling.

I watched a couple of his videos..he places speakers in the wrong place and then complains that Atmos doesn't sound good.

I think it's pretty simple...basically all movies come in 5.1 or Atmos (on the streaming services). Use Dolby Surround upmixer for 5.1 an Atmos for Atmos using Dolby guidelines...

Also 4 height speakers are enough if you have one sitting row.
 
Also 4 height speakers are enough if you have one sitting row.
I would argue 2 height speakers are enough for typical domestic setups, including small dedicated theater rooms. There isn't enough space in a small room for the separation you need between the front and rear heights.
 
Don't know if it's true or not but Techno Dad claims the reason Dolby shows In Ceiling is only because Auro3D has a patent.

The Dolby guide is all about the angles.
Consider that most speakers have a dispersion of around 60 deg and the angles in the dolby guide are based on this.

You need the speakers to be in the correct location based on the angles. Height speakers with a typical room will most likely be on the ceiling.

Also I suggest if you cannot install the speaker at the optimal angle due to a joist/beam etc to go narrower closer to the centre rather than wider.
 
I would argue 2 height speakers are enough for typical domestic setups, including small dedicated theater rooms. There isn't enough space in a small room for the separation you need between the front and rear heights.

That may very well be enough. There was some talk about using six height speakers—but that's definitely overkill.

With four height speakers, the separation is around 55 to 60 degrees and that should be ideal. Depending on the height of the ceiling, in my case 2.65 m, that gives me approximately 1.9 m square on the ceiling centered above MLP where heights should be placed.
 
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