"Improving" Khorns?

[Rickysa]

How funny that this showed up in my Youtube feed this AM:

Does the Klipschorn AK6 sound bland?

 

[Mr. Widget]

How funny that this showed up in my Youtube feed this AM:

Does the Klipschorn AK6 sound bland?

Take a look at your privacy settings?

 

[Plcamp]

I suggested a topping 300 mini would be a logical amp for a Klipschorn due to its excellent noise performance, and the guy laughed at me. Kinda like “where a man might find a bed?” … “No” was all he said.

 

[Chris A]

Those clowns didn't even look at the AK7 DSP option (a.k.a., tri-amping).

It does precisely what the main talking head in the video claims as "his secret".

The reason why the AK6 and AK7 passives exist as-is: the user base is bifurcated into two camps, one that actually wants the "old sound", and one that wants to move into the 21st century using time alignment of drivers and flattened phase.

The time alignment issue was detailed in the mid-1980s by Richard C. Heyser--the best loudspeaker review that I ever saw (attached).



Chris

 

[gberchin]

The reason why the AK6 and AK7 passives exist as-is: the user base is bifurcated into two camps, one that actually wants the "old sound", and one that wants to move into the 21st century using time alignment of drivers and flattened phase.

Two years ago, I had a discussion with Travis, who is a moderator at the Klipsch Forum (Travis, please forgive me for quoting you without permission):

"Just so you know, Roy is in your camp, and stated many, many times in meetings, that the LS6 and AK7, like the Heritage Jubilee, need to be DSP (EQ and time delay) to reach the potential of what he has designed. He has been in that Camp since the 80s with his work with CD horns, and professional cinema and sound reinforcement. As you know, much better than me, those worlds embraced DSP long ago. HOWEVER, apparently, 'they' got some feedback from a 'couple of dealers' who (guess what) cried 'it's just got to have a passive, it's what the audiophiles want who are the ones who buy these speakers.'"

 

[Chris A]

I think that if you want to level blame at anything, the Klipsch marketing department apparently doesn't believe that an educated consumer is their best customer (with full credit to Syms men's wear for the reference).

I believe it was the Klipsch marketing department that made their "put" that the DSP boxes for the Heritage Jubilee, Klipschorn AK7 DSP, and La Scala AL6 DSP option be fixed settings, overriding the engineering dept's suggestions to have adjustable DSP settings. These boxes are not provided with external user interface to update the DSP settings--something that the marketing department apparently believes is a "better idea"...

Chris

 

[Mr. Widget]

The time alignment issue was detailed in the mid-1980s by Richard C. Heyser--the best loudspeaker review that I ever saw (attached).

Thanks for sharing that review. It is an interesting exploration both objectively and subjectively.

 

[gberchin]

With DSP, it is quite possible to build a box that has too many knobs, switches, bells, whistles, and flashing lights. However, it is also possible to build a box that has too few.

 

[Chris A]

Richard C. Heyser is a pretty notable engineer. I recommend a short AI search on what he actually did for the audio community before his untimely passing...and as the head of the AES.

 

[Chris A]

With DSP, it is quite possible to build a box that has too many knobs, switches, bells, whistles, and flashing lights. However, it is also possible to build a box that has too few.

I think the interface that miniDSP uses on their 2x4 HD would be "good enough".

Chris

 

[gberchin]

I think the interface that miniDSP uses on their 2x4 HD would be "good enough".

I agree. A few "canned" configurations that handle most common situations, as well as a deeper interface that allows people with sufficient expertise to implement their own filters and other functions.

 

[Rickysa]

much, much, much to read . I want to do this (tri-amping), but I do have a great deal to learn.

 

[Mr. Widget]

much, much, much to read . I want to do this (tri-amping), but I do have a great deal to learn.

Glad you realize that! So many have jumped into these waters assuming it would be an easy flip of a switch to audio nirvana. For a system like the Klipschorn, going multi-amp and DSP is by far the best way to preserve the best that is there and fix the aspects of the design that are compromised.

Read, read, read, and then jump in realizing there will still be a learning curve... but it will be worth it.

 

[Chris A]

I've tri-amped and time-aligned Khorn clones. The improvement showed up as a much more neutral sound/timbre and cohesive impulse responses, but nothing like the improvement one gets with a pair of Heritage Jubilees (which in my experience are in a different performance regime altogether). I think the older K-77 and K-55 tweeter and midrange drivers of the older Khorns leave something to be desired.

I swapped out the midrange and tweeter drivers with a pair of stacked AMT-1s on each loudspeaker (time-aligned and EQed to flat magnitude response, with top AMT-1 aimed up about 15 degrees relative to the bottom AMT-1). The subjective difference in sound quality was quite large as compared to the original three-way Khorn clones with passives.

I haven't listened to the newer midrange horns/drivers on the AK6 and AK7. I'm sure that time-alignment and further phase flattening using upstream FIR filtering will go a long way toward improving the neutrality and coherence of the venerable Khorn design. There are several ways to accomplish this...for instance using rePhase or perhaps Roon in an upstream PC. That way, you get access to a large amount of FIR taps per channel to be able to correct even the lowest frequency band's phase response of interest.

One other thing: it's actually a lot of fun to play with the DSP settings, even temporarily duplicating the overall response that one gets with passives, then being able to immediately shift back to fully time-aligned and phase/magnitude flattened with the flick of a switch, then listening. It's a real treat to hear the difference, then try to describe to someone the difference in what you hear.

Chris

 

[Rickysa]

It's a real treat to hear the difference

That I look forward to!

 

[babadono]

Greg Oshiro tri-amped his Khorns in 2011: I finally got around to triamping my K-horns

Jeepers...I have searched for this thread several times to point others to it. And it never comes up. I thought the Klipsch powers that be had removed it.
Thanks @Chris A

 

[babadono]

much, much, much to read . I want to do this (tri-amping), but I do have a great deal to learn.

be careful when seeking books about triamping etc.....
you might be in the

 

[Rickysa]

you might be in the

In addition to all of Chris's links, I'm starting here: Benefits of Bi-Amping (Not Quite Magic, But Close) Any other suggestions most welcome

 

[EJ3]

Thanks for the replies, all! I have all the goodies having played with REW and DATS and thought that it might be fun to build an amp to use for bi-amping and the make any changes found with measurements via DSP...if it was worth the effort, not for definitive results, maybe...just to see how much improvement might be expected. Seems like it might be best to find these speakers a new home and re-read the threads on the BMR/Ascend/Revel/etc...

And some of the problems are due to the cabinet's lack of stiffness and internal reflections making it to the outside of the cabinet.
So, anything that you could do to mitigate that would be helpful.

 

[babadono]

as far as tri amping...do you have a crossover yet up to the task? I rolled the dice a a china made unit and am very happy with it.

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