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"Improving" Khorns?

Rickysa

Rickysa

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Maybe the wrong forum (or website:)) for this, but I like the braintrust here...so, for not wanting to throw away the baby with the bathwater: is it possible to modify the sound profile (for lack of a better descriptor) of my Khorns via bi-amping/DSP/combination thereof?

I bought them years ago knowing only what the Kool-Aid vendors were saying and never liked the sound of them (flat/veiled/???). Last summer I found myself intrigued by the audio hobby and started reading/learning (not from the Kool-Aid sources), and since then have found myself (happily) down deep, deep, deep into the rabbit hole. Now I'm building amps/speakers and looking to turn one of the kid's old bedrooms into a dedicated listening room (WAF notwithstanding). Anyhoo, it turns out I apparently like the wide dispersion sound of Philharmonic's BMR Monitors...much different than my Khorns.

As a fun learning project...is there anything in the audio arsenal to make the Khorns sound more open (other than find them a new home and pick up a pair of Ascend ELXs) :)
 
I am sure there are improvements that are possible if you bi amp and use DSP for the crossover. I would imagine there are examples you could work from out there. I think it's a good idea to look around for others that have tried it, since the khorn has gone through some iterations over the years and you would ideally find a guide for your speaker in particular.

However, a lot of the sound is going to be determined by the horn and compression driver. Without replacing either the improvements that are possible have a ceiling.

In any case if you don't have a measurement mic like the UMIK-1 or similar you'll want to pick one up before you do anything. It's pretty necessary to verify any changes you make.

Best of luck with this!
 
Not promising even with DSP:
Lots of resonances, but it seems the majority are due to the cabinet: https://northreadingeng.com/Klipschorn_net/builder_net.htm

Distortion seems high as well, although perhaps not out of range for a compression driver and horn.

I always liked the look of these speakers, and perhaps what would be best is a rebuild using modern drivers, a new folded bass section with bracing and a new horn/waveguide combo.
 
Thanks for the replies, all! I have all the goodies having played with REW and DATS and thought that it might be fun to build an amp to use for bi-amping and the make any changes found with measurements via DSP...if it was worth the effort, not for definitive results, maybe...just to see how much improvement might be expected. Seems like it might be best to find these speakers a new home and re-read the threads on the BMR/Ascend/Revel/etc...:)
 
I'd say that employing a good DSP EQ system (for example, MiniDSP) to help flatten out the in-room frequency response would be easier than trying to improve the speaker itself.
 
Rickysa said:
...so, for not wanting to throw away the baby with the bathwater: is it possible to modify the sound profile (for lack of a better descriptor) of my Khorns via bi-amping/DSP/combination thereof?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Greg Oshiro tri-amped his Khorns in 2011: I finally got around to triamping my K-horns

I've also tri-amped and heavily modified Khorn clones (a pair of Gary Shinall's KKS's). I ended up replacing the midrange and tweeter top hats with stacked/winged ESS AMT-1s to eliminate any harsh edge sound in the smaller bedroom (11'x13.5'x8.5') I have them in--and get flat phase response.

They actually have very low harmonic and modulation distortion, but controlling the midrange floor-ceiling bounce (from the collapsing polar midrange horn) and the harshness of the K-77 tweeter below 4.9 kHz (I don't know source of that harshness) were the priority tasks, I found.

I used double-stacked ESS AMT-1s as midrange-tweeters with wings to get really outstanding phase response and smooth controlled directivity, which worked well--albeit with a fairly controlled vertical directivity. Horizontal directivity was really good. The price was right on the AMT-1s and their measured response is really good--even down to crossing at 400-500 Hz.

But I still recommend a fairly large listening room, even if tri-amping and dialing them in to flatten phase/time alignment and replacing the midrange-tweeter assemly. The bedroom/study where I've got mine is really too small for them to really breath and open up.

Chris
 
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Curvature said:
Distortion seems high as well
Click to expand...
Not sure what data you're looking at. According to the R. C. Heyser review, 41Hz measures <0.5% THD at 95dBSPL and ~1% THD at 105dBSPL. 262Hz is <0.5% THD at 105dBSPL.
 
garyrc said:
And the other Klipsch Forum as well. I think you can get it at "Klipsch Community"
Click to expand...
At least according to the expats at the aforementioned subforum @ AK -- Klipsch customizers have become more or less unwelcome @ Klipsch's own forum. I haven't visited it for decades, so this is hearsay on my part, but, given a couple of changes in ownership in recent years, it sounds plausible.

EDIT: oops Gee Bee, I mean, @gberchin beat me to it!
 
  1. Any Klipschorn more recent than the AK4 has very low total modulation distortion, which is often considered worse than harmonic distortion, % for %. I'm guessing that older Khorns also have this benefit, but I don't know for sure. Horn loudspeakers are known for this quality.
  2. This number 2 is mostly from AI, so I'm not quite sure that it isn't slightly garbled. "Modulation distortion in loudspeakers splits into amplitude modulation (AMD) and frequency modulation (FMD), combining into total modulation distortion (TMD). First-order side band frequencies stem mostly from frequency modulation, while second-order sidebands come from amplitude modulation." Or is it the reverse? Chris? Direct-radiator speakers show high AMD and lower FMD, whereas horn speakers show minimal AMD and low FMD.

    Types of Modulation Distortion
      • Amplitude Modulation Distortion (AMD): Changes the strength of a higher frequency signal based on the movement of a lower frequency wave.
      • Frequency Modulation Distortion (FMD): Adds sidebands due to the Doppler effect when a cone moves back and forth (sometimes called IM in speakers). This creates sidebands that were not in the original recording and can be harmonically unrelated and unpleasant. [See the article in Stereophile: Red Shift: Doppler distortion in Loudspeakers; The best illustrations and graphs I've seen regarding this are in Paul Klipsch's own papers [mostly AES].
  3. I have two Klipschorns (AK4) that I updated with a Klipsch kit (drivers, all but woofers, which stayed the same, updated crossovers, and their newer mid horn, the K401). After all that they sounded a bit better, noticeably, but not radically. The kit/horn brought them up to Khorns of the early 21st century.
  4. I now use Audyssey, usually Audyssey Flat, with its 8 microphone positions, and "fuzzy Logic" (a good thing). This did make things sound better. Because the Khorns are more sensitive than Audyssey could imagine (apparently), we had to use 20dB attenuators while Audyssey was measuring each speaker, from each of those 8 mic positions, then, after all that, take all attenuators off. We were able to do that only because we don't use Audyssey's idea of a loudness compensation control, which we hate. We find that we can use the bass control on our preamp/processor to do a better job. You might need a different receiver or preamp/processor for up to two reasons: You really need a bass control, if you don't have one, and Audyssey comes built in to some receivers or processors, and not others. If Audyssey is not available to you, there is Dirac -- but get the most elaborate one. There are others.
  5. Bi amping, or Tri amping, and straightening out the phase problem is a great idea. You should probably talk to Chris (a member of this forum) about this, or possibly someone at Klipsch.
I have the afore mentioned Klipschorns and here is how they sound to me , with Audyssey, in a treated, 4,252 cu. ft. room with carpet, absorbers and diffusers, bookcases (more than 4 feet from the Khorn corners, of course):

.They aren't shrill
.They aren't honky
.They sound like live music, plausibly like the orchestras I've played in, or from the near audience.
.I do visit audio stores from time to time and haven't heard any that sound better, to my ears, in anything like my price bracket.

Good Luck!
 
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Rickysa said:
is it possible to modify the sound profile (for lack of a better descriptor) of my Khorns via bi-amping/DSP/combination thereof?
Click to expand...

Given that Klipsch has started using DSP in some large heritage speakers, yes.

I think the best thing you can do is have a very large room and corner placement. Because that is what they are for!

Can you EQ the Klipsch sound out of them in room? Well, for my modified Heresies, yes, but I don't. I prefer the sound with the Klipsch dialed down, but not eliminated. A dash of seasoning not the main ingredient. YMMV.

Given that I only pull those out a couple times a year, not what I prefer, but my Heresies were free (for 20 years before I modified them). And they let me play way too loud, and for that, a few times a year, I'll take the issues they have. But after many tries, I just prefer them with some flaws, as long as the flaws are not up in my face all the time. I have a good time, and then get to remember why I like my Sierra LX speakers so much.
 
Gary, mine are AK6s and reading through that thread over @ KAC, Chris was talking over my head by the third post! :) My room is about the same size (15 x 30 x 9) w/ the horns in the short wall corners. I'd like to try and integrate DSP into the current (separates) system to see what could be achieved as "non-invasively" as possible just to see what might be done. The more I'm learning, it seems I may be trying to whittle a square peg into a round hole. I need an excuse to go to AXPONA next spring anyway. :cool:
 
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