OP
Deleted member 72219
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #41
I was advised of the existence of this wonderful unit which allows the power on/off behavior of these amps to be automated:
-Ed
-Ed
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
- Status
Tovarich007
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2021
- Messages
- 278
- Likes
- 385
But which failures exactly ? Initially, you spoke about security flaws. Please give us more details about what happened. Was it minor failures due to a random lack of quality control ? That can be easily improved by the maker if he really cares about his customers (but does he actually cares ?)
Or, was it the consequence of a flawed design in which the quest for theorical measured excellence would have led to build an unreliable product ? This is much worse and would be an absolute No Go ! if a design doesn't allow a normal and long term use of a device, whatever its theorical performances, it's not reasonable to buy it.
We all like music and good sustainable audio products, we're not guinea pigs encouraged to buy devices for testing new designs and electronics schemes insufficiently proven, as good as their measurements can be. Once again, reliablity is a much more important concern for me (and I guess for most of this forum members) than absolute best measured specs.
OP
Deleted member 72219
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #43
The B100 amplifier design is fully discrete, and any protection devices/circuits are also separately designed and integrated.
The simple cause of my amplifiers dying was a momentary full-voltage burst (3V RCA/6V XLR pop noise) from the Geshelli JNOG3 DAC when changing LED color to the amps. The protection circuit/mechanism was not robust enough to prevent the amps from being killed.
I did not have this problem with that DAC on any of my other amps, meaning Fosi V, Fosi ZA3, Fosi V3 Mono, or Hypex NC252MP. The PA200 is also based on mass-manufactured, "off-the-shelf," and IC solutions, rather than fully discrete, and I imagine such designs are generally armed with highly robust defensive mechanisms.
To be extra-safe, I have since also changed DACs to one that won't deliver a full-voltage pop for no reason at all just trying to change lighting colors (a much nicer looking SMSL D400 Pro, which aesthetically matches the PA200s perfectly). Additionally, the new DAC's nominal voltage is 2.5V instead of 3V.
-Ed
Three? Oh, I am allreaddy afraid and shaking.
But my B100 ´s are working just fine.
Perhaps it may be because I am not a to early adopter?
I have my b200’s hooked up to my mofi sourcepoint 888’s and honestly on high gain mode the speakers do not sound any louder than being hooked directly into my n2000a, I think it was audiohaulics review that mentioned the n2000a was pushing close to 200 watts peak per channe idk, I have the pa200 and I agree with everything eddnog has said, plugged into my do400 it makes my r11 metas just come alive, I had the r11’s hooked into a rz70 and meh, then into a osd 7200 and it was better, I just got my buckeye 4 channel hypex blah blah idk it has 500 watts per channel at 8 ohms. So like 300 at 4 ohms idk, it sounds a lot better but I’m still using the rz70 in direct mode but I’ll try the hypex with the do400 this weekend and see how she sounds, now what to do with these b200’s hmmm they are very nice, don’t get very hot imo and build quality is great, I did just now discover bi-amping the mofi’s using speaker a+b on the Yamaha and it made a difference, none of this has sounded as great or detailed as pc to do400 to pa200 to the r11 metas. Fuck me this is adderall induced reply.
Edit***
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD can SMSL work on their naming, ps200 pl200 ps200
Edit***
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD can SMSL work on their naming, ps200 pl200 ps200
Last edited:
OP
Deleted member 72219
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #46
Or more likely you are not using a DAC that is blasting out 3/6Vrms from RCA/XLR and spontaneously releases maximum voltage bursts for seemingly no reason at all such as when trying to change the color of the lights on it.Three? Oh, I am allreaddy afraid and shaking.
But my B100 ´s are working just fine.
Perhaps it may be because I am not a to early adopter?
-Ed
@amirm: Would be so nice if - in future measurements - the switching frequency of Class D Amps and the behaviour of the amp at up to 1 MHz would be shown as a standard - also for Class A, Class AB, or Class B amps.
These measurements would show, if the amp tends to oscillate (e.g. would give me a hint if I could solder some Ultra Ultra low inductance Speaker Cables, that not every amplifier would easily appreciate).
Have read your last post before this post just 20 seconds ago....Thank you but if you could clarify, more specifically, using Ultra Ultra low inductance Speaker Cables.
In my opinion, the best speaker cable is the cable with the lowest inductance, because it lets the high frequencies perfectly through.
This is measurable!
So I don´t understand the claims like "No difference at all in speaker cables"
I have two Set-ups: In one, living-room, I use the Ellis Audio 1801 Speakers and an old NAD 302 Amp.
Since 25 years or so, I use cross-connected Computercable (36 wires) for this Set Up.
The other Set Up (in the sleeping room) is WiiM Pro Plus / Topping B100 / and my self build WaveMoon 182/22 speakers (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/wavemon_182_22_en.htm) - a suggestion from german speaker-builder magazin HobbyHifi.
In this setup, I use quite normal, simple Speaker Cables.
I will probably swing the soldering iron again soon!
The ultra low inductance will occur if you connect the wires 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc. as Plus and the wires 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc. as Minus:
www.reichelt.de
US$ 3 per Meter (for 50-pole) and World-Record-Holder in Inductance and clarity!
The Drawback is the high capacity of this construction. So it is good to have an amp which is quite stable and does not tend to oscillate. And better do not use more than 5 meters or so speaker cable lengths!
This is measurable!
So I don´t understand the claims like "No difference at all in speaker cables"
I have two Set-ups: In one, living-room, I use the Ellis Audio 1801 Speakers and an old NAD 302 Amp.
Since 25 years or so, I use cross-connected Computercable (36 wires) for this Set Up.
The other Set Up (in the sleeping room) is WiiM Pro Plus / Topping B100 / and my self build WaveMoon 182/22 speakers (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/wavemon_182_22_en.htm) - a suggestion from german speaker-builder magazin HobbyHifi.
In this setup, I use quite normal, simple Speaker Cables.
I will probably swing the soldering iron again soon!
The ultra low inductance will occur if you connect the wires 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc. as Plus and the wires 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc. as Minus:
FREI Flachbandkabel AWG28, 50-pol., grau, 3m-Ring | Flachbandkabel günstig kaufen | reichelt elektronik
Flachbandkabel AWG28, 50-pol., grau, 3m-Ring Flachbandkabel von FREI - Schnelle Lieferung ✓ günstige Preise ✓ Für Gewerbe und Privat ✓ Jetzt online bei reichelt elektronik bestellen!
US$ 3 per Meter (for 50-pole) and World-Record-Holder in Inductance and clarity!
The Drawback is the high capacity of this construction. So it is good to have an amp which is quite stable and does not tend to oscillate. And better do not use more than 5 meters or so speaker cable lengths!
Last edited:
In my opinion, the best speaker cable is the cable with the lowest inductance, because it lets the high frequencies perfectly through.
This is measurable!
So I don´t understand the claims like "No difference at all in speaker cables"
I have two Set-ups: In one, living-room, I use the Ellis Audio 1801 Speakers and an old NAD 302 Amp.
Since 25 years or so, I use cross-connected Computercable (36 wires) for this Set Up.
The other Set Up (in the sleeping room) is WiiM Pro Plus / Topping B100 / and my self build WaveMoon 182/22 speakers (https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/wavemon_182_22_en.htm) - a suggestion from german speaker-builder magazin HobbyHifi.
In this setup, I use quite normal, simple Speaker Cables.
I will probably swing the soldering iron again soon!
The ultra low inductance will occur if you connect the wires 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc. as Plus and the wires 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc. as Minus:
FREI Flachbandkabel AWG28, 50-pol., grau, 3m-Ring | Flachbandkabel günstig kaufen | reichelt elektronik
Flachbandkabel AWG28, 50-pol., grau, 3m-Ring Flachbandkabel von FREI - Schnelle Lieferung ✓ günstige Preise ✓ Für Gewerbe und Privat ✓ Jetzt online bei reichelt elektronik bestellen!
US$ 3 per Meter (for 50-pole) and World-Record-Holder in Inductance and clarity!
The Drawback is the high capacity of this construction. So it is good to have an amp which is quite stable and does not tend to swing. And better do not use more than 5 meters or so speaker cable lengths!
Thank you, does high capacity mean high capacitance, or large/size (towards 0 AWG) or high Inductance or all of those or other.... can you further clarify :=)
antcollinet
Grand Contributor
It is.
And when measured (or even calculated, because the calculations are trivial, and 100% representative of reality), the difference is below the level of audibility, as long as the cable is of sufficient cross sectional area (gauge) and not ludicrously constructed.
(14 gauge zip wire meets this requirement in nearly all normal installations)
It mean high capacitance. My English is not so good, because I am from Germany.
Due to their design, low-inductance cables have a much higher capacitance than conventional cables. Although this has no effect on the sound of loudspeaker cables, unlike very small signal (phono) cables, it can cause stability problems in the form of a tendency to oscillate in poorly designed amplifiers. This manifests itself in increased heat development and, in extreme cases, even leads to the power amplifier burning out. But don't panic - there is an effective solution: A series circuit consisting of a resistor (4.7 ohms, 5 watts) and a capacitor (100 nanofarads, 63 volts), plugged into the speaker terminals parallel to the cable from plus to minus, imposes an ohmic base load on the amplifier at high frequencies and thus guarantees unconditional stability.
But: This series circuit is not necessary with just 3 meters or so Speaker Cable length.
Maybe the differences, more clarity in the high frequencies, because of less high frequency damping of the low inductance cable (which mimics an amp with low output resistance / high damping factor) is just 0.5 dB or even just 0.25 dB, I think I can hear the difference very well, even it is said, that just differences over 1 dB are audible……
Roon taught me better in playing around with it‘s equalizer!
Tovarich007
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2021
- Messages
- 278
- Likes
- 385
It changes (a little bit) the concern on the B100. The initial problem was your Dac, not the amp. A big burst on/off is a design flaw too, the kind of noise I definitely dislike anyway.
Of course, the protection circuit of the B100 should have been more robust, Topping's designers love to play and experiment with circuitry and componenets.
They would rather work on reliability, for sure ! As for circuitry protection, integrated industrial circuits are more efficient (and cheaper) than off the shelf discrete solutions, so i wonder why Topping has opted for the last solution. Sort of silly idea.
Tovarich007
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2021
- Messages
- 278
- Likes
- 385
Your post isn't easily understandable, you know : no capital letters, no space, no distinct paragraphs, a real pain to read, very sorry to tell frankly.
You speak of a N2000A ? which device is it ? You know, I don't remember all the references if you don't specify the type of device and its brand.
It's just like your claim for better naming by SMSL, which I agree with.
Everybody has to make efforts to help understanding and memorization.
Well I think, it is pretty unfair:Look, the Fosi V3 (US$ 110) is only slightly better, than the Boulder Amplifiers 2150, The Gryphon Apex stereo or the Burmester 218 Monos (all of them for just US$ 99.00!)
So although it is a bit a comparison between apples and oranges, snakeoil amps can of course (nearly) compete with competent designed Chifi stuff like Fosi V3.
You have only to pay just 1000 times more.
Real Bargains!
Amplifier SINAD list ASR + 3rd parties
Last edited:
Thank you, actually, your English is very good :=)
The effective solution of a series circuit consisting of a resistor (4.7 ohms, 5 watts) and a capacitor (100 nanofarads, 63 volts), plugged into the speaker terminals parallel to the cable from plus to minus, imposes an ohmic base load on the amplifier at high frequencies and thus guarantees unconditional stability…. Yes, this is effectively a High Pass (Notch type) Filter but applied after the Speaker Cable (usually before), isn’t it? Do you find that this is an effective solution for Highly Capacitive Speaker cable? Other than yourself. do you know anybody who has done this with Speaker cable, any examples? This could also be done within a Passive Crossover, have you seen this also done, any examples?
Asking speaker cable to be a very (even very, very) large Capacitor, at least for high power amplifyers, suggests that you are asking speaker cable to be a (leaky) High Pass Coupleing Capacitor delivery…. is that correct? This is extremely difficult when considered that the Amplifyer would need to supply almost unconditionally stable voltage output and ultra low output impedance, especially as a Speakers input Impedance can be 2 (or lower, even 1ohm or less)/4/8 ohms. Using the 10 times/1 decade (minimum, for high performance) principle this would mean that an Amplifyers output Impedance would need to be <0.1 ohms (for 1 ohm Speaker input Impedance) but even less when the Speaker Cable is included, doesn’t it? Theoretically possible/doable but would this deliver High Fidelity? For low power 2 or 3 watt Amplifyers (often called Flea Watt Amplifyers or high power Preamplifyers) this is definitely possible/doable but as the wattage increases the difficulty rises exponentially, doesn’t it?
It could be suggested that output Audio Transformers (lowering output impedance, etc) provided an (easyer) solution for this difficulty/issue and Speakers having >100 SPL also provided an easyer solution for this difficulty/issue. Other solutions have been provided, albeit with compromises, haven’t they? The PA200/GAN is an example, of other, isn’t it?
It could be suggested that the Coupleing Capacitor difficulty/issue and need/desire for higher/very high Amplifyer outputs, saw the need and rise of speaker cable to be a Low Pass delivery and have low/very low capacitance and low/moderately low inductance where the Speakers still only see the Amplifyer and Speaker Cable as lower/lower Impedance (hopefully, the 10 times/1 decade principle still applys, and under all required conditions as set by the Amplifyer and Speaker combination). Low/moderately low inductance helps with EF effects and also helps with Amplifyer stability, doesn’t it?
High Capacitance has (theoretical) merit, in that it needs to be sufficient to get out of the way, Higher than Audio frequencys need to be controlled/filtered out without affecting the Audio Signal (hence Class D issues) and to ensure an Amplifyer remains stable, and it needs to work in nearly every/majority of Amplifyer/Speaker combinations/relationships, doesn’t it?
The ultimate solution is that the Speaker cable allows the Speakers to only see the Amplifyer, isn’t it? Is that possible, it would be nice to think so and would be a nice solution, wouldn’t it? :=)
Last edited:
1. A ready-made solution where you don't have to solder yourself:
Perhaps you are able to translate this from german?
HMS Perfect Match Zobelglieder – der Weg zur perfekten Klang-Abstimmung
www.lite-magazin.de
2. Yes: Thick cables, short cables, low inductance cables. Mono amplifiers do make it easy to work with short distances between amp and Speaker!
Can´t imagine any problems in speaker frequency response with e.g. 3 foot long cables.
So I don´t understand the claims like "No difference at all in speaker cables"
I have two Set-ups: In one, living-room, I use the Ellis Audio 1801 Speakers and an old NAD 302 Amp.
Since 25 years or so, I use cross-connected Computercable (36 wires) for this Set Up.
The ultra low inductance will occur if you connect the wires 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc. as Plus and the wires 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc. as Minus:
US$ 3 per Meter (for 50-pole) and World-Record-Holder in Inductance and clarity!FREI Flachbandkabel AWG28, 50-pol., grau, 3m-Ring | Flachbandkabel günstig kaufen | reichelt elektronik
Flachbandkabel AWG28, 50-pol., grau, 3m-Ring Flachbandkabel von FREI - Schnelle Lieferung ✓ günstige Preise ✓ Für Gewerbe und Privat ✓ Jetzt online bei reichelt elektronik bestellen!
Forgot to ask, what length to you use/recommend and (per chance) do you have the Capacitance & Inductance values of this approach, for this length?
I will, once translated, have a read of the article :=)
Well, I just use 2 meters length for each speaker in the living room so that there is of course no need for any correction circuit. The old NAD 302 just works flawlessly with the cross-connected Computercable on the Ellis Audio 1801.
Don’t waste to much money in Speaker Cables.
But if you want one of these shiny brands: E.g. Kimber Cables have also normally quite low inductance.
Cross connected Computercables do the job just as fine (or even better) as Kimber (Kimber 8tc etc.).
Or just take the Chinese Clone of a Nordost Flatline and do the Cross Connection Soldering by yourself (I don’t think, that it is possible to get them already done cross-connected…):
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
