Impressions: SMSL PA200 GAN FET Class-D Power Amp

[KL....]

SMSL PA200 does not come with PFFB, I have checked with Taobao official store and they checked with their technical staff.

That's not what the manufacturer told me...

Is the manufacturer SMSL? If yes then could you post their reply to you for us to read/assess and if no, can you both contact SMSL and let us know? This is a sound/objective method, isn't it? otherwise it is (subjective) conjecture, isn't it?

Note that you cannot have a meaningful discussion until and at some point, it becomes an objective discussion and this occurs when the reference point/s (desire/intent) is/are clarifyed.... this is reasonable, isn't it?

 

[Deleted member 72219]

It it could be suggested, why wonder? You could simply purchase the SMSL PA200, to compare to the Fosi V3, with your (unchanged) speakers, can't you? This is an objective approach, isn't it? If you do not like the PA200 then you can return it for a refund and post your like or dislike impressions in this thread, can't you?

A point to consider, though.... @EddNog, did you notice a QC/Test sticker with your units (an objective process, isn't it? usually on rear or bottom panel) or QC/Test indications on the SMSL website? If no, then until clarifyed, the purchaser is the QC/Tester, aren't they? As such, @Loba, if you do purchase an SMSL PA200 then you should test it (perhaps playing music through it for 10-12hrs/day) to test its robustness and evaluate it at the same time, shouldn't you?

If you like it, enough, then you will probably keep it but regardless and after, you can still recap the speaker crossovers, can't you?.... enjoy :=)

On your first point--I suppose it simply depends on how good the return policy is for his reseller for the PA200. I get that not everyone necessarily has access to great return policies like those of Amazon (Prime) or Apos.

On your second point--I have no idea on this. Is it somehow mandatory to disclose whether or not a product is final-QC'd in other countries? Here in the US, I do not believe it is mandatory to indicate if an item is actually final-QC'd.

On your third point (I know, not directed to me)...and I understand of course that it isn't necessarily a direct correlation, but if he's willing to recap speakers almost as old as I am as opposed to looking into new ones with potentially much better objective performance, then either he REALLY, really loves those speakers, or there is a budget constraint there, and just recapping his speaker's crossovers is a LOT cheaper than new amps, hence my original suggestion because I am looking at cost:benefit ratio and moving from V3 Monos to PA200 is expensive with very minimal to no (noticible) gain, even potentially detrimental given V3 Monos have better objective results.

-Ed

 

[Deleted member 72219]

Is the manufacturer SMSL? If yes then could you post their reply to you for us to read/assess and if no, can you both contact SMSL and let us know? This is a sound/objective method, isn't it? otherwise it is (subjective) conjecture, isn't it?

Note that you cannot have a meaningful discussion until and some point, it becomes an objective discussion and this occurs when the reference point/s (desire/intent) is/are clarifyed.... this is reasonable, isn't it?

Some of the confusion may simply be a matter of how the question was posed and also how that question was interpreted and answered.

If specifically asked, "does PA200 have PFFB?" The answer can easily vary--it may have PFFB, then answer is yes. It may have no feedback at all, the answer is no. It might have feedback in the design but not specifically post-filter, then the answer would depend on how the person at SMSL interpreted the question.

A more clear question might be, "Does the PA200 use any form of feedback in its design?"

-Ed

 

[goryu]

Is the manufacturer SMSL? If yes then could you post their reply to you for us to read/assess and if no, can you both contact SMSL and let us know? This is a sound/objective method, isn't it? otherwise it is (subjective) conjecture, isn't it?

Note that you cannot have a meaningful discussion until and at some point, it becomes an objective discussion and this occurs when the reference point/s (desire/intent) is/are clarifyed.... this is reasonable, isn't it?

I asked their online support at https://smsl.shop/

Here is the conversation:

SMSL SHOP​

• March 19
• Hello-
  10:45 AM
• Can you tell me if your PA200 GaN amplifier uses post filter feedback or is it open loop? Thank you.
  10:46 AM
• March 20
• Thank you for your technical inquiry! The SMSL P200 GaN amplifier utilizes a closed-loop design with post-filter feedback to ensure optimal performance and stability. If you have further questions about its architecture or operation, feel free to ask! Best regards, SMSL Support Team
  12:24 AM

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Roland68]

SMSL PA200 does not come with PFFB, I have checked with Taobao official store and they checked with their technical staff.

That's not what the manufacturer told me...

Are you serious?
You're complaining that SMSL doesn't use the technology TI has integrated into its TPA32xx chipsets in its Infineon-based amplifiers?

As far as I know, all Infineon-based amplifiers, MA1270, Ma53x2MS, MERUS IRS209, etc., have integrated feedback, but before the coil/filter. Feedback after the coil/filter is neither intended nor possible with this amplifier technology.

This is a fundamental decision of the chip manufacturer, both at TI and Infineon.

 

[goryu]

Are you serious?
You're complaining that SMSL doesn't use the technology TI has integrated into its TPA32xx chipsets in its Infineon-based amplifiers?

As far as I know, all Infineon-based amplifiers, MA1270, Ma53x2MS, MERUS IRS209, etc., have integrated feedback, but before the coil/filter. Feedback after the coil/filter is neither intended nor possible with this amplifier technology.

This is a fundamental decision of the chip manufacturer, both at TI and Infineon.

Tell it to the manufacturer. I am simply reporting the answer the company supplied.

As for open loop class d amps, their load variant frequency response is sub optimal and a solved issue in comparison to better performing amps from Hypex, Purifi and Orchard, all of which use post filter feedback.

 

[Roland68]

Tell it to the manufacturer. I am simply reporting the answer the company supplied.

As for open loop class d amps, their load variant frequency response is sub optimal and a solved issue in comparison to better performing amps from Hypex, Purifi and Orchard, all of which use post filter feedback.

SMSL builds working devices, including some pretty good ones. But it's no secret that they tend to use templates and developments from chip manufacturers rather than being innovative in their own development.
You can usually learn more from the chip's technical data sheets than from the device manufacturers.

The answers to technical questions I've asked SMSL over the past few years have mostly been answered, but they were at best 50% accurate.
With Loxie and Sabaj, the response rate was significantly lower, if they received any answers at all.

Unfortunately, you have to live with that with these manufacturers, just like with the well-known firmware problem, among others. Or you have to resort to something else.

The design of the PA200 is presumably based on the EVAL_AUDAMP24 with MERUS™ IRS20957SPBF and IGT40R070D1 E8220CoolGaN™, but that's just a guess.

 

[goryu]

The answers to technical questions I've asked SMSL over the past few years have mostly been answered, but they were at best 50% accurate.
With Loxie and Sabaj, the response rate was significantly lower, if they received any answers at all.

Another good reason to avoid them.

Unfortunately, you have to live with that with these manufacturers, just like with the well-known firmware problem, among others. Or you have to resort to something else.

I for one will choose the later. There are better performing products on the market from manufacturers with industry leading experts ready and willing to accurately answer tech questions thus I see no reason to waste time on companies who can't even be trusted to accurately answer technical questions.

 

[Julf]

I asked their online support at https://smsl.shop/

Here is the conversation:

SMSL SHOP​

• March 19
• Hello-
  10:45 AM
• Can you tell me if your PA200 GaN amplifier uses post filter feedback or is it open loop? Thank you.
  10:46 AM
• March 20
• Thank you for your technical inquiry! The SMSL P200 GaN amplifier utilizes a closed-loop design with post-filter feedback to ensure optimal performance and stability. If you have further questions about its architecture or operation, feel free to ask! Best regards, SMSL Support Team
  12:24 AM

Seems pretty clear to me.

Do you know if that was a human or a chatbot (the latter have an annoying habit of hallucinating...)?

 

[Roland68]

Another good reason to avoid them.



I for one will choose the later. There are better performing products on the market from manufacturers with industry leading experts ready and willing to accurately answer tech questions thus I see no reason to waste time on companies who can't even be trusted to accurately answer technical questions.

I completely agree with you.
The low price of many devices also requires some compromises.

 

[goryu]

Do you know if that was a human or a chatbot (the latter have an annoying habit of hallucinating...)?

Since it took a day for them to reply, and, the reply seemed tailored to my question, I assumed it was a human.

 

[Roland68]

Do you know if that was a human or a chatbot (the latter have an annoying habit of hallucinating...)?

Since it took a day for them to reply, and, the reply seemed tailored to my question, I assumed it was a human.

A bot would have answered, send us a video first

 

[goryu]

Video of what?

If it doesn't have post filter feedback, all the more reason to cross it off the list.

 

[Theboar]

I am new to this forum but I listened to both the Infineon GaN FET SMSL PA200 and the Eigentakt Purifi NADc298 hours after hours in direct comparison. I am not an audiophile and I don't like audiophile language (too many variables). Moreover, I cannot decide which one to prefer because of all the psychology... I am just interested in what technology can bring to music.

What I can say is that the SMSL, besides having a different sound character (when 'high frequency noise' is recorded on a track the SMSL presents this noise (or overeggarates) where the NAD hides or covers it) the PA200 combines better with my Vacuum tube preamplifier. The NAD gives noise from the vacuum pre amp to my speakers where the SMSL stays completely silent. So here for me something is 'right' and the PA200 design 'feels' more thrustworthy. So I've decided to buy another PA200 unit. It's a retail price of 400 vs 1900 euro for the NAD.

 

[Julf]

The NAD gives noise from the vacuum pre amp to my speakers where the SMSL stays completely silent.

Sounds like they have different gain. If so, any listening comparisons are pretty much useless.

 

[Deleted member 72219]

This part:

...when 'high frequency noise' is recorded on a track the SMSL presents this noise (or overeggarates) where the NAD hides or covers it)...

Appears to contradict this part:

...The NAD gives noise from the vacuum pre amp to my speakers where the SMSL stays completely silent. ...

So I am confused by your feedback.

-Ed

 

[KL....]

I asked their online support at https://smsl.shop/

Here is the conversation:

SMSL SHOP​

• March 19
• Hello-
  10:45 AM
• Can you tell me if your PA200 GaN amplifier uses post filter feedback or is it open loop? Thank you.
  10:46 AM
• March 20
• Thank you for your technical inquiry! The SMSL P200 GaN amplifier utilizes a closed-loop design with post-filter feedback to ensure optimal performance and stability. If you have further questions about its architecture or operation, feel free to ask! Best regards, SMSL Support Team
  12:24 AM

Seems pretty clear to me.

Thank you @goryu, very much appreciated :=)

Let's ask @amirm (for accuracy/clarity) about the SMSL P200 GaN amplifier utiliseing a closed-loop design with post-filter feedback, as indicated by SMSL Shop. @amirm could you please (objectively) clarify for us if the SMSL PA200 utilises post-filter feedback or not and if it does, what type of post-filter feedback? Also as since you have been asked about this, we would like to ask if the SMSL PA200 is in the schedule for the ASR test & measurements review process?.... thank you

 

[MCH]

Thank you @goryu, very much appreciated :=)

Let's ask @amirm (for accuracy/clarity) about the SMSL P200 GaN amplifier utiliseing a closed-loop design with post-filter feedback, as indicated by SMSL Shop. @amirm could you please (objectively) clarify for us if the SMSL PA200 utilises post-filter feedback or not and if it does, what type of post-filter feedback? Also as since you have been asked about this, we would like to ask if the SMSL PA200 is in the schedule for the ASR test & measurements review process?.... thank you

Amir doesn't open the devices that he tests often, and when he does, he doesn't always comment about the design. You have better chances convincing an owner to post pictures of the insides (or do it yourself ) and asking the folks in the forum what you want to know.

 

[Theboar]

This part:


Appears to contradict this part:


So I am confused by your feedback.

-Ed

When the daughters switch the pre amp on and off the NAD gives the switching sounds to the speakers. The SMSL for some reason stays silent. So with little children the PA200 has it's advantages in my situation.

When there is no music playing the NAD gives a very little noise to the speakers, while the SMSL stays completely silent. Gain is both fixed, no other changes in setup.
When a record has high frequency noise recorded on the track the SMSL (in my setup) gives the noise more presence whereas the NAD 'covers' it.

 

[Matt_Holland]

When the daughters switch the pre amp on and off the NAD gives the switching sounds to the speakers. The SMSL for some reason stays silent. So with little children the PA200 has it's advantages in my situation.

When there is no music playing the NAD gives a very little noise to the speakers, while the SMSL stays completely silent. Gain is both fixed, no other changes in setup.
When a record has high frequency noise recorded on the track the SMSL (in my setup) gives the noise more presence whereas the NAD 'covers' it.

We need a full test to show why, but possibly the PA200 has a wider frequency response than the NAD.