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Impeccable measurements. Are they the key to success in today's world of high end audio?

Mivera

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#62
Devialet gets pushed onto vivid audio often too. i think its a style and aesthetic apparition thing. they both want to be seen as high technology products so as companies they fit together well.
You also have to look at who's doing the distribution. Distributor's usually dictate how their products will be presented in the dealer showrooms. You will always see products from the same distributor paired together, even if other components in the same dealer showroom would represent the product better. They are also very fussy about the other brands being sold at the same dealer. They prefer dealers who deal with their lineup exclusively.
 

Thomas savage

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#63
You also have to look at who's doing the distribution. Distributor's usually dictate how their products will be presented in the dealer showrooms. You will always see products from the same distributor paired together, even if other components in the same dealer showroom would represent the product better. They are also very fussy about the other brands being sold at the same dealer. They prefer dealers who deal with their lineup exclusively.
that's true but with vivid and devialet there is more going on. they know each other in some way. its off topic but you will often find clever brand management by distributors where they pair a marque name with a less well know (high profit margin) brand, using the known high brand value product to enhance the lesser well known.

stillpoint legitimised entreq in the u.s an example
 

Mivera

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#64
that's true but with vivid and devialet there is more going on. they know each other in some way. its off topic but you will often find clever brand management by distributors where they pair a marque name with a less well know (high profit margin) brand, using the known high brand value product to enhance the lesser well known.

stillpoint legitimised entreq in the u.s an example

Yeah there's all sorts of clever marketing tricks. Unfortunately I'm not savvy to all of them so at this point I just have to settle with offering superior products :)
 

Ethan Winer

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#65
Should one developing high end audio gear in today's high end audio landscape, focus on impeccable measurements, or should they focus on trying to achieve what the masses refer to as "musicality"?
First you have to define "musicality" in clear and unambiguous terms. The problem is that's not possible. Go ahead and try. I'll wait. o_O

--Ethan
 

Phelonious Ponk

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#66
If you can build an amplifier that measures perfectly for $1,000, re-engineer in a gentle hump peaking at about 60hz, and a slow roll-off starting at about 10khz, put it in a really impressive looking box with humongous speaker terminals and a single knob that weighs no less than a pound. There. Now it should sell for $10,000.

I exaggerate (though not much) for effect, but the strategy is sound. The big bucks in the high end are not going for accurate reproduction. High status with soft sound is where the big money is. Is that what you were asking Blizz...er, Mivera? Hey would it be really cool if your real name was Blizzard Mivera?

Tim
 

Mivera

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#67
First you have to define "musicality" in clear and unambiguous terms. The problem is that's not possible. Go ahead and try. I'll wait. o_O

--Ethan
My take on it is "perceived accurate reproduction of the original event" Human hearing is full of flaws. Placebo's are also a very powerful part of the subjective experience.

The best engineers balance all of the attributes that make for a positive "perceived" reproduction, combined with measured results to prove the equipment isn't causing any degradation when it comes to industry standard measurement protocols.
 
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Mivera

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#68
If you can build an amplifier that measures perfectly for $1,000, re-engineer in a gentle hump peaking at about 60hz, and a slow roll-off starting at about 10khz, put it in a really impressive looking box with humongous speaker terminals and a single knob that weighs no less than a pound. There. Now it should sell for $10,000.

I exaggerate (though not much) for effect, but the strategy is sound. The big bucks in the high end are not going for accurate reproduction. High status with soft sound is where the big money is. Is that what you were asking Blizz...er, Mivera? Hey would it be really cool if your real name was Blizzard Mivera?

Tim
What you're describing is traditional ways manufacturers try to achieve "musicality" I think the best approach is using solid engineering to make accurate hardware, and using DSP to do any drastic manipulation to the signal in order to please this crowd.

Well the Blizzard name only was made because there was a blizzard outside when I was trying to think of a username years ago on another forum. But I think it's time for the Blizzard legacy to end. Mivera is part my name, and part my wife Veranika's name. Her role in the business is putting up with me :)
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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#69
What you're describing is traditional ways manufacturers try to achieve "musicality" I think the best approach is using solid engineering to make accurate hardware, and using DSP to do any drastic minipulation to the signal in order to please this crowd.
I agree, but much of the high-end crowd does not. In fact for many who are spending the most, DSP is a four letter word.

Tim
 

Opus111

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#70
If you plan to market, then study the market. It will reward you or not if you meet its perceived needs. You can't replace their perception with what you think is good for them and succeed.
This is extremely important and can often be overlooked. I noticed Udo Zucker didn't take it to heart in respect of TMA - here's an interview he gave : http://www.stereophile.com/news/11746/#R4RXXA4zyATQlrwG.97

I'll just highlight one line to illustrate his thinking (emphasis mine) -

Now we're looking at each and every product and considering how much development it has taken, what size market potentially exists for it and, hence, what is the return we can expect, before we set the price. If the customer doesn't like that price, so be it.

Is it any wonder TMA went out of business?
 

March Audio

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#71
I think you have missed the point there slightly.

Tags mistake with the market was selling the equipment too cheaply. High cost of development and too low a margin on what would only ever be a small level of sales.

They should have from the start sold at a much higher price more in line with the high end. The comment above is simply due to the unsustainable low pricing they had. They had no choice but to raise it.

The market is down everywhere and the distribution has to change; the end prices have to change. In my opinion, it's no longer acceptable to spend a lot of money developing a product, such as a £2500 AV processor, to make £400. That's just not good enough
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/news/11746/index.html#MWWcxpes1kHhTL1Q.99
 

Opus111

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#72
I think you've missed the point rather - TAG's mistake with the market is exactly the thing I was endorsing in Blumlein-88's post i.e. 'You can't replace their perception with what you think is good for them and succeed'. TAG is an example of such - they chose the wrong price because they had the attitude that they know better than the market.
 

March Audio

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#73
I think you've missed the point rather - TAG's mistake with the market is exactly the thing I was endorsing in Blumlein-88's post i.e. 'You can't replace their perception with what you think is good for them and succeed'. TAG is an example of such - they chose the wrong price because they had the attitude that they know better than the market.
Err no. the change of price was forced, because of their intiial mistake. The initial mistake wasnt ignoring the market, it was trying to offer excellent value for money. If they had continued with too low pricing they would have gone out of business anyway.
 

Opus111

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#74
Err no. the change of price was forced, because of their intiial mistake.
Yes, I agree. Doesn't change my point.

The initial mistake wasnt ignoring the market, it was trying to offer excellent value for money. If they had continued with too low pricing they would have gone out of business anyway.
The 'trying to offer excellent value for money' is indeed an example of thinking they know better than the market.
 

Opus111

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#76
My point is that they ignored the market because they had the attitude that they knew better than the market. So of course they did not realize they ignored the market, but ignore it they did. The quote I included was an example of that same attitude - i.e. even though they realized there was a mistake in their original pricing the attitude persisted.
 

March Audio

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#77
Thats not ignoring the market, thats trying to compete in the market. Someone just made error of judgement about the pricing/level of sales/estimated market which started reducing aropund that time.

No the attitude didnt persist, they had no choice to raise price because the low prices were unsustainable and they would have gone out of business anyway.

You need to stop trying to spin it into something it isnt.
 

Opus111

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#78
You need to stop trying to spin it into something it isnt.
ROFLMAO.

The attitude I'm referring to - of knowing better than the market what the market needs - is evident throughout that interview. Another example :

The market is down everywhere and the distribution has to change; the end prices have to change. In my opinion, it's no longer acceptable to spend a lot of money developing a product, such as a £2500 AV processor, to make £400. That's just not good enough.

Here note the use of 'in my opinion'. One's opinion, no matter whose, just does not cut it in successful marketing. Just as in science its evidence not opinion that separates the sheep from the goats.
 
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Blumlein 88

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#79
Watch some episodes of Bar Rescue. Those shows usually indicate quite clearly the tendency to know better than the client or confuse doing what one wants vs giving customers what they want. They sometimes do follow ups months after straightening out a failing business. Each time profit and business improve greatly at first. About 3/4's of the time, owners have veered back into the old ways and are losing money again. It quite simply is a stubborness of what owners want to do for the customer vs what was working. The picture owners developed in their mind and simply can't let go of when it fails. The few who maintained the changes usually have prospered even more as time goes by and word spreads.

It isn't high end audio, but there is a commonality about some aspects of a public business. If you're too smart for your customers, don't expect them to reward you.
 

Opus111

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#80
Bar Rescue is a TV show? Not heard of that before, but then I haven't watched any TV for over a decade. In engineering companies its often the engineers who confuse what the customer wants with what they themselves want. So in goes all the cool technology because those geeks want to work with that and use that themselves. When the customer probably doesn't need nor want 90% of that stuff, nor wishes to pay for it, its just bloat.
 

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