Impact of Audeze 2021 pad revision

[Ilkless]

Audezes are wonderful headphones especially if the weight is bearable. There was a pad revision in late 2020/early 2021 that was said to increase upper mid response anecdotally, but there was little talk about exactly how much the increase was, and the frequency range, which would potentially have implications on EQ profiles based on measurements before the revision. Luckily, someone on the Headphones.com forum managed to get a smoothed difference curve on the impact of the new pads from Audeze. Essentially a +2dB increase centred at 3kHz, spanning 1.2kHz to 7kHz. This is significantly audible (just bought a new LCD-2 Rosewood) compared to pairs with the older pads I've owned and tried, and will affect EQ profiles by Oratory and AutoEQ derived from Crinacle's measurements. On the bright side, the 3kHz gain plus the latest driver revisions mean I've had zero need to EQ any pinna gain for the first time in an LCD-series headphone. But there's still a ~6kHz sibilance that's thankfully fairly easy to iron out with a crude filter. Unfortunately, the changes also mean that higher-Q tweaks higher up in the treble from existing EQ profiles are also not necessarily valid, not just the broad high shelf for pinna gain.

 

[Deleted member 60987]

Audezes are wonderful headphones especially if the weight is bearable. There was a pad revision in late 2020/early 2021 that was said to increase upper mid response anecdotally, but there was little talk about exactly how much the increase was, and the frequency range, which would potentially have implications on EQ profiles based on measurements before the revision. Luckily, someone on the Headphones.com forum managed to get a smoothed difference curve on the impact of the new pads from Audeze. Essentially a +2dB increase centred at 3kHz, spanning 1.2kHz to 7kHz. This is significantly audible (just bought a new LCD-2 Rosewood) compared to pairs with the older pads I've owned and tried, and will affect EQ profiles by Oratory and AutoEQ derived from Crinacle's measurements. On the bright side, the 3kHz gain plus the latest driver revisions mean I've had zero need to EQ any pinna gain for the first time in an LCD-series headphone. But there's still a ~6kHz sibilance that's thankfully fairly easy to iron out with a crude filter. Unfortunately, the changes also mean that higher-Q tweaks higher up in the treble from existing EQ profiles are also not necessarily valid, not just the broad high shelf for pinna gain.

That's insane. But who has an extra $1,000 to throw around on headphones? Professional studios, I guess. Home recording is a hobby, and if you're not using a computer, you wind up a accumulating a ton of expensive gadgets and instruments already.

 

[Ilkless]

That's insane. But who has an extra $1,000 to throw around on headphones? Professional studios, I guess. Home recording is a hobby, and if you're not using a computer, you wind up a accumulating a ton of expensive gadgets and instruments already.

I disagree, massive leaps in distortion and extension are present up to $1,000 for headphones. They are in many ways better value than the purgatory of midrange $300-500 headphones with significant problems with bass extension, or distortion, or response smoothness. Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic and AKG come to mind. I'm getting 0.1% distortion, flat down to 20Hz at 100dBSPL from Audeze headphones. Try getting anywhere near that with cheaper headphones.

 

[GaryH]

response smoothness

LOL.

 

[Deleted member 60987]

That's insane. But who has an extra $1,000 to throw around on headphones? Professional studios, I guess. Home recording is a hobby, and if you're not using a computer, you wind up a accumulating a ton of expensive gadgets and instruments already.

I disagree, massive leaps in distortion and extension are present up to $1,000 for headphones. They are in many ways better value than the purgatory of midrange $300-500 headphones with significant problems with bass extension, or distortion, or response smoothness. Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic and AKG come to mind. I'm getting 0.1% distortion, flat down to 20Hz at 100dBSPL from Audeze headphones. Try getting anywhere near that with cheaper headphones.

What are "massive" leaps, 1%? How loud do you have to blare music before that happens? The idea you get more by paying more is a sad delusion. The most popular snare mike in studios for decades is the $100 Sure 57. The most popular live vocal mike the $100 Sure 58,. Regardless of how big a band was or how much they had to spend, though now they are more likely to go with wireless headsets. But you can see photos of people like Dave Grohl singing with $80 Sony MDR 7506 headphones. I don't doubt Audeze are great headphones. I question whether the average person would prefer them over $50 Superlux. Or $35 for that matter. Elitism is a sad thing, getting people to convince themselves they aren't throwing money away and spending more is getting more. There is a law of diminishing returns in audio where you don't have to spend that much to get very good stuff. If you spend 10 times as much you might get something a little better. Sometimes. Often you don't. Simply because the engineers have not balanced the equipment as well as legendary models. For other things it is not true, such as vocal mikes where they go for $5,000 Neumann U-87 or U47 and reference speakers where they go for things like Yamaha NS10s. Headphones, however have never required spending a fortune for an excellent pair.

 

[Ilkless]

A Deep Dive Into Harman Curves - The Long Way Round (Part 1)

In Part 1 of the Harman Target Curve deep-dive series, we explore the fundamental of human hearing and how it is related to the Harman Curve.

www.headphonesty.com

Come back when you have studied the psychoacoustics.

Reverse snobbery and absolutist objectivism, untethered to psychoacoustic, stemming from Dunning-Kruger is not a good look.

Find me a cheaper headphone that has full flat extension to 20Hz and placement invariance (and therefore suitability for HRTF synthesis). The HD650, and DT880 don't. Any notion the Superlux is like a Topping is laughable.

Do you even know what an HRTF is, and what HRTF correction entails?

 

[GaryH]

placement invariance

LOL.

 

[Ilkless]

LOL.

An inability to understand graphs in context of psychoacoustics and headphone engineering limitations is not the win you think it is. I'm starting to think the SBAF and head-fi subjectivists had a point about "measurbators" who consume and cite graphs without a fundamental understanding of the science.

BTW, I've written articles on psychoacoustics and headphone research endorsed by Sean Olive. Curious to know what evidence and knowledge you are relying on for your judgment, except for the ability to pull up Crinacle graphs and emit condescending Dunning-Kruger snark under the illusion that you are enlightening an audiophool.

To use a crude loudspeaker analogy, you are insisting the Neumann KH120 and Genelec 8030 are overpriced ripoffs just because the Kali LP-6 exists. This website doesn't exist to crap on anything but the cheapest transducers, especially when they are the only part of the chain that has not been commoditised.

Your graphs show exemplary invariance with seal and placement - at least on artificial pinnae - as far as headphones go, and a cursory study of measurements and existing limitations would yield that (@oratory1990 @MayaTlab may be able to attest to that).

The exact response doesn't matter -- what matters in headphones is:

- placement invariance (which you seem to have unrealistic expectations of)

- seal invariance (a subset of the first point, but especially pertaining to full bass extension down to limits of audibility)

- lack of high-Q FR peaks and dips, because as I highlight in my analysis, EQ is necessary, and a headphone that tracks Harman (or any other target response) out of the box may still need EQ. Plus, tracking Harman does not guarantee the invariance we are looking for. In the Crinacle graphs you show, there are no high-Q peaks almost up to the last octave, with one solitary peak at 8kHz. Furthermore, you seem to not be aware that headphone measurements above 10kHz are still limited by current techniques and technology and not meant to be wholly trusted (a point @oratory1990 has painstakingly explained across several sites).

- low distortion particularly for aggressive bass shelving for Harman. The usual suite of measurements only covers HD that is of dubious correlation with perception. But HD is a useful partial proxy for other more objectionable artefacts, like intermodulation and compression. And it is entirely fair to aim for distortion below reproach, where the HD curve barely climbs even with +10dB (as seen with certain planars), to ensure minimal penalty in distortion regardless of FR.

Sennheiser HD650 has exemplary invariance from bass to treble, demonstrated across multiple measurement sessions, measurement setups and specimens used. Even if we ignore the bass distortion, it rolls off drastically due to the driver limitations, surrounding excursion and Fs. I don't think it's audiophool to seek full extension down to 20Hz. AKG K702 can't do it either.

The Superlux? Prove it exhibits those characteristics. But I don't expect you to with the absence of knowledge about headphone measurements except to regurgitate them, as well as the psychoacoustics involved

Beyerdynamics have high-Q treble resonances.

AKG K371? Massive high-Q dip smack in the middle of the pinna gain zone.

Actual 20Hz to 20kHz FR and ability to take the necessary EQ starts at DCA Aeon X -- and we have to discount the high sensitivity to seal in DCA's configuration.

 

[Intervallkoppler]

An inability to understand graphs in context of psychoacoustics and headphone engineering limitations is not the win you think it is. I'm starting to think the SBAF and head-fi subjectivists had a point about "measurbators" who consume and cite graphs without a fundamental understanding of the science.

BTW, I've written articles on psychoacoustics and headphone research endorsed by Sean Olive. Curious to know what evidence and knowledge you are relying on for your judgment, except for the ability to pull up Crinacle graphs and emit condescending Dunning-Kruger snark under the illusion that you are enlightening an audiophool.

To use a crude loudspeaker analogy, you are insisting the Neumann KH120 and Genelec 8030 are overpriced ripoffs just because the Kali LP-6 exists. This website doesn't exist to crap on anything but the cheapest transducers, especially when they are the only part of the chain that has not been commoditised.

Your graphs show exemplary invariance with seal and placement - at least on artificial pinnae - as far as headphones go, and a cursory study of measurements and existing limitations would yield that (@oratory1990 @MayaTlab may be able to attest to that).

The exact response doesn't matter -- what matters in headphones is:

- placement invariance (which you seem to have unrealistic expectations of)

- seal invariance (a subset of the first point, but especially pertaining to full bass extension down to limits of audibility)

- lack of high-Q FR peaks and dips, because as I highlight in my analysis, EQ is necessary, and a headphone that tracks Harman (or any other target response) out of the box may still need EQ. Plus, tracking Harman does not guarantee the invariance we are looking for. In the Crinacle graphs you show, there are no high-Q peaks almost up to the last octave, with one solitary peak at 8kHz. Furthermore, you seem to not be aware that headphone measurements above 10kHz are still limited by current techniques and technology and not meant to be wholly trusted (a point @oratory1990 has painstakingly explained across several sites).

- low distortion particularly for aggressive bass shelving for Harman. The usual suite of measurements only covers HD that is of dubious correlation with perception. But HD is a useful partial proxy for other more objectionable artefacts, like intermodulation and compression. And it is entirely fair to aim for distortion below reproach, where the HD curve barely climbs even with +10dB (as seen with certain planars), to ensure minimal penalty in distortion regardless of FR.

Sennheiser HD650 has exemplary invariance from bass to treble, demonstrated across multiple measurement sessions, measurement setups and specimens used. Even if we ignore the bass distortion, it rolls off drastically due to the driver limitations, surrounding excursion and Fs. I don't think it's audiophool to seek full extension down to 20Hz. AKG K702 can't do it either.

The Superlux? Prove it exhibits those characteristics. But I don't expect you to with the absence of knowledge about headphone measurements except to regurgitate them, as well as the psychoacoustics involved

Beyerdynamics have high-Q treble resonances.

AKG K371? Massive high-Q dip smack in the middle of the pinna gain zone.

Actual 20Hz to 20kHz FR and ability to take the necessary EQ starts at DCA Aeon X -- and we have to discount the high sensitivity to seal in DCA's configuration.

I get this measurement from audeze of my 2022 lcd x and to me with no understanding of the technic behind it looks strange.

 

[Blorg]

@Intervallkoppler Audeze have their own method for measuring, which isn't comparable to most of the graphs you see done with ear simulators. The ear simulators boost the upper mids, so does your ear but this isn't inherent to the headphone. This looks similar to a flat plate measurement, compare for example @solderdude's LCD-X (pre-2021) measurement, they have brought up the upper mids since that but there is some commonality there.

Subjectively though, that is more or less what the LCD-X sounds like, forward lower mids, recessed upper mids, coming back with spicy treble. That's the LCD-X all right.

LCD-X (Fazor)

back to Audeze back to measurements home published: Jul-5-2017, updated: June-6-2021 NO SMOOTHING is applied to the shown plots. Most measurement sites have some smoothing applied which ‘irons flat…

diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com

 

[concorde1]

As I have found all the AutoEQ options unsuitable for my 2021 LCD-3, I have been using without EQ for quite some time somewhat happily.

I skimmed over the following video to look at the measurements.

I accordingly made a crude EQ myself for my LCD-3:

50 Hz 4.5 dB High Shelf ; 4150Hz 4.8 dB 2.5 Q ; 8000 Hz 4.8 dB 2.5 Q

Still playing with it but it seems like a good improvement over no EQ.

 

[Ilkless]

As I have found all the AutoEQ options unsuitable for my 2021 LCD-3, I have been using without EQ for quite some time somewhat happily.

I skimmed over the following video to look at the measurements.

I accordingly made a crude EQ myself for my LCD-3:

50 Hz 4.5 dB High Shelf ; 4150Hz 4.8 dB 2.5 Q ; 8000 Hz 4.8 dB 2.5 Q

Still playing with it but it seems like a good improvement over no EQ.

Thanks for sharing, useful reference for my own LCD-2 EQ.

 

[concorde1]

Just in case anyone is ever stuck without a good EQ for LCD-3 2021 . . .

Preamp: -5.3 dB
Filter: ON LS Fc 50 Hz Gain 3 dB
Filter: ON LS Fc 90 Hz Gain 2.1 dB
Filter: ON PK Fc 4150 Hz Gain 4.8 dB Q 3
Filter: ON PK Fc 8000 Hz Gain 4.8 dB Q 3
Filter: ON PK Fc 6700 Hz Gain -3.6 dB Q 4

It may be just by my inspection of graph in above video, but it is heavenly sounding for me

 

[dlieb]

Just in case anyone is ever stuck without a good EQ for LCD-3 2021 . . .

Preamp: -5.3 dB
Filter: ON LS Fc 50 Hz Gain 3 dB
Filter: ON LS Fc 90 Hz Gain 2.1 dB
Filter: ON PK Fc 4150 Hz Gain 4.8 dB Q 3
Filter: ON PK Fc 8000 Hz Gain 4.8 dB Q 3
Filter: ON PK Fc 6700 Hz Gain -3.6 dB Q 4

It may be just by my inspection of graph in above video, but it is heavenly sounding for me

Does anybody happen to have an preferred EQ for a LCD-2 (Fazor, 2020) with the 2021 pads?

 

[concorde1]

I'm all over the place with EQ's so take me with grain of salt.

I've once more gravitated towards no EQ for my LCD-3 2021.

 

[DVDdoug]

But who has an extra $1,000 to throw around on headphones? Professional studios, I guess.

Studios generally want rugged-reliable and comfortable headphones. Mostly they are used by singers/artists to hear the backing track or click-track. Or sometimes by engineers for hearing "little details and defects". Monitors are used for critical mixing & mastering decisions and adjustments.

...I have one saved excerpt from an engineer who uses his personal headphones because he moves between studios and he wants consistency. He says it doesn't matter what they sound like as long as you learn what a good production sounds like on them.