IMD audibility, using XLR vs RCA output of Gustard x16

[Pdxwayne]

I tired using Gustard x16 xlr out direct to amp since yesterday. To get Tidal mqa, I had to use fixed volume on my node2i. Thus the only way to control volume is using X16 volume control.

Using x16 xlr out to my amp causes my speakers to go much louder than when using RCA. I had to use -20db volume level on x16, which is many dB lower than when using RCA.

With this volume level, it seems like now music is a bit harsher than when using RCA direct out to amp (where volume level typically above -15db).

Can IMD cause the harshness?

At -20db, the IMD is -90. At -15db, the IMD is about -100.

Here is the IMD chart from Amir

 

[Jimbob54]

You know the drill by now. Prove you hear a difference under controlled conditions, then investigate why.

 

[Lambda]

, then investigate why.

If you can hear it you can measure it with cheap audio interface

 

[Pdxwayne]

You know the drill by now. Prove you hear a difference under controlled conditions, then investigate why.

Haha, sure.

Still, Gustard said don't use x16 volume control as it would degrade performance.

I wonder if the degradation of using x16 volume control is audible. If so, how to check...

 

[Pdxwayne]

If you can hear it you can measure it with cheap audio interface

Amir already measure IMD. ; )

I wonder when and how IMD would be audibled....

-90? -80? What to listen for?

 

[Jimbob54]

Haha, sure.

Still, Gustard said don't use x16 volume control as it would degrade performance.

I wonder if the degradation of using x16 volume control is audible. If so, how to check...

Can your amp take RCA and XLR at the same time and toggle? If it can, there is your test- just find out which volume level XLR matches output of RCA at full exactly and have someone do a pretty quick switch (and volume adjustment) of inputs and see if you can reliably tell.

Otherwise , some might say you are looking at the measurements , seeing a mild bump in IMD at what should be inaudible levels then claiming to be able to hear it ;-)

 

[Jimbob54]

Amir already measure IMD. ; )

I wonder when and how IMD would be audibled....

-90? -80? What to listen for?

Lets not forget , this RME is recognised as one of the best DACs out there - its marginally better at 4v -20dB than the Gustard- by your logic, this would also sound harsh etc

I think someone would have noticed...

 

[Jimbob54]

Haha, sure.

Still, Gustard said don't use x16 volume control as it would degrade performance.

I wonder if the degradation of using x16 volume control is audible. If so, how to check...

Got a link for that advice by the way?

 

[Pdxwayne]

Got a link for that advice by the way?

Here you go:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...x16-balanced-mqa-dac-review.17419/post-653419

 

[Jimbob54]

Here you go:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...x16-balanced-mqa-dac-review.17419/post-653419

Oy!

Well, by all means buy a pre amp. But please, do proper blind listening tests between it and using the dac volume and send it back if you can't tell the difference.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Can your amp take RCA and XLR at the same time and toggle? If it can, there is your test- just find out which volume level XLR matches output of RCA at full exactly and have someone do a pretty quick switch (and volume adjustment) of inputs and see if you can reliably tell.

Otherwise , some might say you are looking at the measurements , seeing a mild bump in IMD at what should be inaudible levels then claiming to be able to hear it ;-)

Neither my amp nor x16 can switch. So, not that simple to do quick switch between RCA and XLR.

As now the amp also involved, I wonder if using RadioShack sound meter could be good enough for now just for quick comparison checking purposes.

I also wonder if streaming quality could responsible for what I heard.....My phone loss connection to the node2i a few times yesterday. Could node2i stream CD music at reduced rate than CD quality.....

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions!

 

[Veri]

Lets not forget , this RME is recognised as one of the best DACs out there - its marginally better at 4v -20dB than the Gustard- by your logic, this would also sound harsh etc

I think someone would have noticed...

View attachment 118164

That's a good point. I don't think the super mild 'humpy' IMD behaviour in X16 is anything to worry about. As it is it's still better than most devices tested here, and very close to for example the RME ADI-2 which many people adore..

 

[Pdxwayne]

That's a good point. I don't think the super mild 'humpy' IMD behaviour in X16 is anything to worry about. As it is it's still better than most devices tested here, and very close to for example the RME ADI-2 which many people adore..

I still wonder why gustard say what they said at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...x16-balanced-mqa-dac-review.17419/post-653419

If indeed quality would suffer when using x16 volume control and IMD is not the issue, what else could it be? What do I listen for?

 

[Veri]

I still wonder why gustard say what they said at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...x16-balanced-mqa-dac-review.17419/post-653419

If indeed quality would suffer when using x16 volume control and IMD is not the issue, what else could it be? What do I listen for?

SNR can theoretically be marginally improved with analog pre-amp and digital volume at full, but considering 24-bit digital headroom you need to attenuate by a LOT before this difference could be 'heard'. Digital volume is quite good nowadays. Gustard is not wrong but for most people it will suffice. Like, 100% suffice and sound very good.

 

[curiouspeter]

SNR can theoretically be marginally improved with analog pre-amp and digital volume at full, but considering 24-bit digital headroom you need to attenuate by a LOT before this difference could be 'heard'. Digital volume is quite good nowadays. Gustard is not wrong but for most people it will suffice. Like, 100% suffice and sound very good.

Digital volume can be quite good, but only if it was designed as such and not as an afterthought. I don't know how it was implemented on the X16, but if Gustard says digital attenuation will degrade quality, I would think twice about doing it.

I leave my X16 at 0 db.

I do -21 db on my AX-505 and the rest on the Roon side. Roon uses 64-bit float, which is as good as you can get on the digital side.

 

[Jimbob54]

I still wonder why gustard say what they said at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...x16-balanced-mqa-dac-review.17419/post-653419

If indeed quality would suffer when using x16 volume control and IMD is not the issue, what else could it be? What do I listen for?

As previously stated, you listen for a difference. This requires a like for like comparison. You cant sit down with your DAC turned to -20 and attribute anything you perceive as less than perfect to be due to the volume reduction. You need to know those artefacts / tells actually arent there in the source and are induced by your system. In particular one variable in your system.

You started this saying that after having your DAC wired to RCA , you switched to XLR, with a resulting requirement for a decrease in output. This then created a perceived "harshness" which you now seek to attribute to lowering the output and hearing resulting IMD.

You havent yet proved there is a change, nevermind what the cause of it might be. There are so many reasons you might have heard this change. Very few of them sit with the actual signal coming out of the DAC.

I guarantee you that if you buy a pre amp, you will hear the improvement.

I also guarantee within a couple of weeks you will be back here with a perceived problem with that set up. Probably due to impedance mis-match, or power supply or jitter or something else. Please, just enjoy what you have and stop listening for flaws.

 

[Pdxwayne]

As previously stated, you listen for a difference. This requires a like for like comparison. You cant sit down with your DAC turned to -20 and attribute anything you perceive as less than perfect to be due to the volume reduction. You need to know those artefacts / tells actually arent there in the source and are induced by your system. In particular one variable in your system.

You started this saying that after having your DAC wired to RCA , you switched to XLR, with a resulting requirement for a decrease in output. This then created a perceived "harshness" which you now seek to attribute to lowering the output and hearing resulting IMD.

You havent yet proved there is a change, nevermind what the cause of it might be. There are so many reasons you might have heard this change. Very few of them sit with the actual signal coming out of the DAC.

I guarantee you that if you buy a pre amp, you will hear the improvement.

I also guarantee within a couple of weeks you will be back here with a perceived problem with that set up. Probably due to impedance mis-match, or power supply or jitter or something else. Please, just enjoy what you have and stop listening for flaws.

I was going to enjoy my music and then it felt like I can't relax much with xlr. Not sure if "harsh" is the correct description in my original post. But it is just a bit odd that I can't relax much now....

 

[Jimbob54]

I was going to enjoy my music and then it felt like I can't relax much with xlr. Not sure if "harsh" is the correct description in my original post. But it is just a bit odd that I can't relax much now....

And you attribute this to the way your hifi is wired up?

 

[Pdxwayne]

And you attribute this to the way your hifi is wired up?

Haha, when I always listen to same songs to relax and suddenly I can't do that after I made a change.....

I think it would be easy to find out if it is me or the change. I just need to switch back to RCA.
; )

 

[Jimbob54]

Haha, when I always listen to same songs to relax and suddenly I can't do that after I made a change.....

I think it would be easy to find out if it is me or the change. I just need to switch back to RCA.
; )

That was going to be my next suggestion! But I dont think it would answer your real question. Cognitive bias. It doesnt work how us laymen think it works.