Imaging issue leaning left

[Keith_W]

Your measurements that you posted previously showed that your left and right speakers are very much close to identical. If those measurements are real and accurate, I do not think you can gain any improvements by repositioning your system.

I should point out that having prolonged hearing loss in one ear due to earwax might make your brain suppress that ear and it might take a few days for your brain to readjust to normal hearing. If it does not, then it's time for a visit to the audiologist.

And maybe repeat your REW measurements to be SURE that L/R on your system is identical. You can post the MDAT.

 

[Longrail]

Your measurements that you posted previously showed that your left and right speakers are very much close to identical. If those measurements are real and accurate, I do not think you can gain any improvements by repositioning your system.

I should point out that having prolonged hearing loss in one ear due to earwax might make your brain suppress that ear and it might take a few days for your brain to readjust to normal hearing. If it does not, then it's time for a visit to the audiologist.

And maybe repeat your REW measurements to be SURE that L/R on your system is identical. You can post the MDAT.

Thanks, the measures were real and accurate, I will be seeking out a hearing assessment with an audiologist.

Separate to the leaning issue, in one of the previous posts you mentioned the poorly aligned sub and using the zero crossing point after initial energy build up, I'm now trying out a basic calibration without Dirac as I think it sounds generally better to me, I picked the speaker pair that arrives earliest and delayed all others to match that, does below look ok for Left and Sub alignment ?, it looks like the zero crossing point is where I've highlighted with White crosshair so perhaps need to adjust delay by 10.2ms ?

 

[Keith_W]

The point you selected looks okay to me.

 

[Longrail]

Bit of an update.

Went to see an audiologist for a hearing test, the tympanometry came back ok, 226hz on the right ear pressure is -57 daPa and left is -73 which I believe suggests the right ear has better pressure response.

Out of the frequencies they tested (250hz, 500, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8khz), the right ear showed a 5db drop from 250 - 2khz, they advised this is within normal acceptable hearing asymmetry.

Overall they say my hearing is excellent, the ENT specialist summarized there is not much else they can really do, an MRI was offered which I have taken but they are not expecting it to come back with anything.

Now with the mono content learning left, I did notice that if I cover my left ear with my hand, the content is mostly centered, if I cover my right ear, it shifts even more further to the left, I advised the ENT of this but they did not really have an answer. So I am mostly left with trying to compensate as reasonably as possible.

I used REW to create WAV files for every octave from 400hz and above, opened in Audition with the Amplify plugin, played each file and decreased the Left channel amplification until the tone sounded centered and noted down the amplification difference, I then applied these values into the DEQ2496's PEQ, now most content is centered although there is a feeling of more "pressure" from the right which is difficult to explain (I expect this is partly due to cutting on the left channel), the downside is when testing each speaker separately the Left is tonally different, sort of duller than the right

If I keep the speakers tonally the same, it takes around a 3-4db cut on the left channel to get content mostly centered, this of course means when testing each speaker separately that Left is noticeably quieter than the right.

I guess this is now just a case of finding whatever I'm comfortable with and moving on.

 

[Keith_W]

Are you able to get someone else to listen to your system and confirm if the image is shifted?

 

[Longrail]

Are you able to get someone else to listen to your system and confirm if the image is shifted?

Not at the moment no, don't really know anyone else.

 

[Jiraya369]

Not at the moment no, don't really know anyone else.

hmm i think you can try using a panning thing in your dac/dsp. Just turn everything a bit to the side that is opposite to the side that the image is shifted to. That could help. I have hearing problems and need to do that and after that everything is fine for me.

 

[Longrail]

hmm i think you can try using a panning thing in your dac/dsp. Just turn everything a bit to the side that is opposite to the side that the image is shifted to. That could help. I have hearing problems and need to do that and after that everything is fine for me.

Thanks, looking at other features of the DEQ2496 it has a "Stereo Imager" feature built in which sounds interesting based on what the product page says about it below, will give that a go and see what happens.

 

[Jiraya369]

Thanks, looking at other features of the DEQ2496 it has a "Stereo Imager" feature built in which sounds interesting based on what the product page says about it below, will give that a go and see what happens.
View attachment 502376

stereo imager is for making the recording wider or narrower, it's not to fix issues in the stereo image itself.

 

[gwing]

How about a good old fashioned pre-amp with a balance control for easy adjustment?

 

[Longrail]

stereo imager is for making the recording wider or narrower, it's not to fix issues in the stereo image itself.

Yep so interested in the part it says about "Rotation (panning of stereo + mono in the stereo image)".

How about a good old fashioned pre-amp with a balance control for easy adjustment?

So the Arcam AV41 processor I'm using has a balance control on it's a webpage, sort of like a "L -----o----- R" and a slider (the "o") that adjusts in 1db increments, have tried this but does not produce a satisfactory result.

 

[Audioagnostic]

Bit of an update.

Went to see an audiologist for a hearing test, the tympanometry came back ok, 226hz on the right ear pressure is -57 daPa and left is -73 which I believe suggests the right ear has better pressure response.

Out of the frequencies they tested (250hz, 500, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8khz), the right ear showed a 5db drop from 250 - 2khz, they advised this is within normal acceptable hearing asymmetry.

Overall they say my hearing is excellent, the ENT specialist summarized there is not much else they can really do, an MRI was offered which I have taken but they are not expecting it to come back with anything.

Now with the mono content learning left, I did notice that if I cover my left ear with my hand, the content is mostly centered, if I cover my right ear, it shifts even more further to the left, I advised the ENT of this but they did not really have an answer. So I am mostly left with trying to compensate as reasonably as possible.

I used REW to create WAV files for every octave from 400hz and above, opened in Audition with the Amplify plugin, played each file and decreased the Left channel amplification until the tone sounded centered and noted down the amplification difference, I then applied these values into the DEQ2496's PEQ, now most content is centered although there is a feeling of more "pressure" from the right which is difficult to explain (I expect this is partly due to cutting on the left channel), the downside is when testing each speaker separately the Left is tonally different, sort of duller than the right

If I keep the speakers tonally the same, it takes around a 3-4db cut on the left channel to get content mostly centered, this of course means when testing each speaker separately that Left is noticeably quieter than the right.

I guess this is now just a case of finding whatever I'm comfortable with and moving on.

5db should be audible not? Even if it is within normal range.

I had the same issue and realized I am a bit more deaf on one side...

 

[Longrail]

5db should be audible not? Even if it is within normal range.

I had the same issue and realized I am a bit more deaf on one side...

Yeah 5db to me is a lot, but I’m unsure if a 5db difference in the audio world has the same meaning to an audiologist from a medical perspective.

 

[gwing]

Yep so interested in the part it says about "Rotation (panning of stereo + mono in the stereo image)".


So the Arcam AV41 processor I'm using has a balance control on it's a webpage, sort of like a "L -----o----- R" and a slider (the "o") that adjusts in 1db increments, have tried this but does not produce a satisfactory result.

As I understand it from the thread your current problem is "Now with the mono content learning left, I did notice that if I cover my left ear with my hand, the content is mostly centered, if I cover my right ear, it shifts even more further to the left". That does sound like something a balance control would largely correct - what deficiency prompts you to say this "does not produce a satisfactory result"?

And, just a as a sanity check to eliminate more complex causes, If you play through just a simple stereo pair( no sub, DIRAC or other signal processing,) is the mono image centerable with the balance control?

 

[Longrail]

As I understand it from the thread your current problem is "Now with the mono content learning left, I did notice that if I cover my left ear with my hand, the content is mostly centered, if I cover my right ear, it shifts even more further to the left". That does sound like something a balance control would largely correct - what deficiency prompts you to say this "does not produce a satisfactory result"?

And, just a as a sanity check to eliminate more complex causes, If you play through just a simple stereo pair( no sub, DIRAC or other signal processing,) is the mono image centerable with the balance control?

So currently spoken words/dialogue leans left around 6" or so, however certain other mono content does not lean much, I keep facing an issue of correcting one, but then throwing off the other, so when using balance control, it's shifting everything so I'm simply going back and forth.

I have stopped using Dirac and have since done a calibration without it as I prefer the sound of the speakers without the room correction, I have tried just a basic stereo pair with no signal subs or processing happening, the left lean quite simply is enough that it draws ones attention to it, if it was minor I'd simply adjust the trim level on 1 speaker. I will try some more experimentation this evening hopefully.

 

[jeffaegrim]

A tiny bit of delay - even 0.1ms or so - applied to the louder appearing loudspeaker should help more with the image being off center than the balance control. Furthermore, turning around and listening to one's system with one's back turned to it is another useful trick to find the source of the issue. If the image imbalance switches sides, it's definitely due to your ears.

Fascinating, really: once people find out they have an imbalance, their brain is able to adjust to it in real time. Confronted with the fact that everyone else present besides him heard a stable center image in my system, a friend of mine described experiencing the "adjustment" of the stereo image right there on the spot. As in: the image shifted towards the center as he was listening to music & his brain adapted to the new information. To a minor degree I experienced something similar. Very interesting stuff. Best not to obsess about it too much - things are rarely perfectly centered anyway, flaws creep in in the mixing/mastering stage already.

 

[Dumdum]

If your room isn’t perfectly symetrical left to right things like this can happen due to reflections and where your brain puts the source of the sound

For example if I place speakers symetrical in my front room my stage is skewed to the right due to a balistrade to the left of the room, if you listen to the left speaker the stage is very deep and inside the location of the speaker, right is just outside the speaker, I got around it by placing the left speaker closer to me and wider… this gets me a centred image with music and is fine with atmos etc

 

[OCA]

So currently spoken words/dialogue leans left around 6" or so, however certain other mono content does not lean much, I keep facing an issue of correcting one, but then throwing off the other, so when using balance control, it's shifting everything so I'm simply going back and forth.

I have stopped using Dirac and have since done a calibration without it as I prefer the sound of the speakers without the room correction, I have tried just a basic stereo pair with no signal subs or processing happening, the left lean quite simply is enough that it draws ones attention to it, if it was minor I'd simply adjust the trim level on 1 speaker. I will try some more experimentation this evening hopefully.

The chaotic panel placement has completely confused Dirac phase correction algorithm above 1kHz. You can try feeding it single mic position (dead center) measurements which might fix the issue (or avoid correction beyond 1Khz if at all possible):

 

[kyuu]

OCA has an interesting point. Were you using full-range correction with Dirac? If so, that would likely explain why you prefer the sound without it. You should try a correction limited to no higher than 500Hz, or even no higher than 300Hz, and see if you like that better.

 

[Longrail]

The chaotic panel placement has completely confused Dirac phase correction algorithm above 1kHz. You can try feeding it single mic position (dead center) measurements which might fix the issue (or avoid correction beyond 1Khz if at all possible):

View attachment 502433

Thanks for taking the time to take a look, the measurements in your posted graph with Dirac on are with the fronts correction limited to 280hz. In the last part of my last message I did say I was not using Dirac now, and in my first post I did say it happens with Dirac off, are you able to advise how you got the phase graphs looking like that and how you did the average ?, I got part of the way there but unable to get it to look the same as yours ?, my current L+R measures with no Dirac is HERE, don't know if your able to check those ones if you have time.

I have tried extensively multiple calibration attempts with only 1point measures, the result is exactly the same.

A tiny bit of delay - even 0.1ms or so - applied to the louder appearing loudspeaker should help more with the image being off center than the balance control. Furthermore, turning around and listening to one's system with one's back turned to it is another useful trick to find the source of the issue. If the image imbalance switches sides, it's definitely due to your ears.

Fascinating, really: once people find out they have an imbalance, their brain is able to adjust to it in real time. Confronted with the fact that everyone else present besides him heard a stable center image in my system, a friend of mine described experiencing the "adjustment" of the stereo image right there on the spot. As in: the image shifted towards the center as he was listening to music & his brain adapted to the new information. To a minor degree I experienced something similar. Very interesting stuff. Best not to obsess about it too much - things are rarely perfectly centered anyway, flaws creep in in the mixing/mastering stage already.

Yep so a 0.1ms delay creates quote a noticeable shift, the issue with adjusting the delays is the throwing off the relationship with other speakers, like Center, Side Surrounds and Front Heights, a 0.1ms does definitely help but pink noise tests create a very noticeable difference (whereas currently although Left+Right together have an issue, testing other speaker pairs are quite well matched, such as Left+Center, Right+Center, Left+SurroundLeft, Right+SurroundRight). A short while back I did try turning myself around and listening and the issue shifted the other way, this is 1 of the things that prompted me to seek out getting my ears checked.

If your room isn’t perfectly symetrical left to right things like this can happen due to reflections and where your brain puts the source of the sound

For example if I place speakers symetrical in my front room my stage is skewed to the right due to a balistrade to the left of the room, if you listen to the left speaker the stage is very deep and inside the location of the speaker, right is just outside the speaker, I got around it by placing the left speaker closer to me and wider… this gets me a centred image with music and is fine with atmos etc

So my room appears fairly symmetrical at the front stage, although behind the front stage there are differences in how deep the cupboards go, behind me on the right there is a kind of imbalance with a brick chimney that I'm not able to remove so I've mostly covered with Rockwool and Black fabric, I did try moving the speakers further front and back but did not try asymmetrical placement. I am wondering if the TV may something to do with it, a 55" decent sized reflective panel, although do not want to move the TV.

OCA has an interesting point. Were you using full-range correction with Dirac? If so, that would likely explain why you prefer the sound without it. You should try a correction limited to no higher than 500Hz, or even no higher than 300Hz, and see if you like that better.

I used to a long time ago, eventually realized it sounds terrible like that and it sucked the life out of the speakers, I have not used full correction on the front stereo pair for around 1 year now, previously limited to 300hz, then 280hz, now have stopped using Dirac altogether.