I'm confused about today's amplifiers.

[Chaconne]

As a largely old-school hifi guy, I'm accustomed to the distinction between "power amplifiers" and "integrated amplifiers." Now I see units that seem to blur the line between the two from companies like Topping, Fosi, SMSL, Ayima and such. I've even seen some of them described as "integrated power amplifiers" or "desktop amplifiers." Some have dials on the front that look like volume controls as in an integrated amp, yet they also seem to be described as "power amplifiers" or "speaker amplifiers."

Now, I find myself in a situation that could benefit from a small-sized amplifier—what I think of as a "power amplifier," that is, a unit that sits between a preamp and speakers. I understand that these new amps are Class D and presumably mostly of Chinese origin. But I'm confused about what exactly they are: power amps, integrated amps or something in between.

I wonder if any of you can clear up my confusion to the point that I am able to know which of Amir's (and others') reviews are relevant to my situation. Feel free to also recommend some specific units. (This would be for a full-room system, as opposed to desktop. I don't need more than 60-80 wpc or so (8 ohms) and would like to keep it at about $300 US or less.) THANK YOU!

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't think you can draw a hard line. I guess I'd describe these things as "power amps with features".

To me an integrated amp includes all of the inputs, switches, and controls of a preamp. A receiver without a tuner.

A "gain control" on a traditional amp isn't usually intended to be uses as an everyday volume control but if it's on the front it can be. A lot of pro power amps how have DSP EQ or crossover filters.

 

[PierreV]

Something like 2 FOSI Audio V3 fits the bill

Fosi Audio V3 Mono Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Fosi Audio V3 Mono class D amplifier. It was sent to me by the company. The price with the power supply I tested is US $139.99. I must say the concept of a "monoblock" amplifier in such a small size runs foul of any expectation a longtime...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It is of Chinese origin and design, but uses a well known Texas Instruments chip.

Many options in that range. Almost too many to count.

 

[V.b.]

They are, in fact, small integrated amplifiers. But since they are so small, they lack or restrict amenities that we are used to, as a remote, multiple inputs, A/B speakers switch, tone controls etc.

So it is reasonable to think of them as power amplifiers because you would have to use volume control and source switching on a different device.

But recent ones have performance beyond old sources, so you would have to use a DAC/streamer to get the best of them and it usually has remote and multiple inputs

3e A5 or Topping PA5 will do.

V

 

[Zgrado1970]

Your best bet is to skip the name of the item and look at specs and features. To my understanding, a power amplifier will have only inputs (single for mono, 2 for stereo, etc.) and corresponding speaker outputs. Anything else is an integrated. But I cannot remember where I learned that.

 

[amirm]

If you have a single source with its own volume control, then all you need is a simple power amp with no controls.
If you have a single source with no volume control, then you need a power amplifier with a volume control.
If you have more than one source, then you need an "integrated" amplifier with input selection. Unlike the old days, we tend to only need one or two inputs so no need for large boxes of the past.

You can of course get an integrated amplifier and use it in the previous scenarios.

 

[egellings]

I remember when a power amplifier was also called a basic amplifier. That was back in the vacuum tube days, before the solid state era.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

As a largely old-school hifi guy, I'm accustomed to the distinction between "power amplifiers" and "integrated amplifiers." Now I see units that seem to blur the line between the two from companies like Topping, Fosi, SMSL, Ayima and such. I've even seen some of them described as "integrated power amplifiers" or "desktop amplifiers." Some have dials on the front that look like volume controls as in an integrated amp, yet they also seem to be described as "power amplifiers" or "speaker amplifiers."

Now, I find myself in a situation that could benefit from a small-sized amplifier—what I think of as a "power amplifier," that is, a unit that sits between a preamp and speakers. I understand that these new amps are Class D and presumably mostly of Chinese origin. But I'm confused about what exactly they are: power amps, integrated amps or something in between.

I wonder if any of you can clear up my confusion to the point that I am able to know which of Amir's (and others') reviews are relevant to my situation. Feel free to also recommend some specific units. (This would be for a full-room system, as opposed to desktop. I don't need more than 60-80 wpc or so (8 ohms) and would like to keep it at about $300 US or less.) THANK YOU!

Power Amplifiers in the old school days, as you say, had one input per channel and a pair of speaker terminals per channel and absolutely no controls...

... actually, this is not exclusively true. Some old-school domestic power amplifiers had gain adjusters. Generally you tended to set these once (e.g. to maximise SNR) and then do all controls including volume adjustment with the preamplifier. In comparison many professional power amplifiers had front-panel gain adjusters. If you search for the Quad 510 and 520, these are from the 80s, are 19" rack mountable, are probably similar to the domestic 306 and 606, but they have lockable gain controls on the front. There are many similar professional examples from the 70s, 80s, 90s etc.

An integrated amplifier is like a preamplifier and power amplifier in the same box. Lots of inputs and switching, mute, mono, balance, tone controls etc. Perhaps an RIAA phono preamplifier built in.

In my opinion, if a box can drive a speaker and only has a gain control, it's a power amplifier. To be anything else, it needs source switching, EQ, balance etc.

 

[DSJR]

My 1970s Crown power amps have gain controls on them, the idea being to maximise the volume control range on the preamp and keep noise and distportion as low as possible. Too many amps even today, have 'all or nothing' before the main volume control is set halfway, so being able to reduce the gain at the power amp end can be beneficial (mine are set just over half way up for example)

 

[Chr1]

Don't mean to confuse things, but it's also worth mentioning that using line level switch boxes (and passive attenuators, if required) between sources and power amps is another option. Both can be bought cheaply and you then have the added benefit of being able to switch between amplifiers too, if required.

 

[mhardy6647]

and you then have the added benefit of being able to switch between amplifiers too, if required.

Totally agree -- I am a big fan of decently constructed passive switchboxes to add flexibility (inputs, or even outputs). The image above includes an Azden passive switchbox with some source dubbing functionality. The other box is a three-input switch and a passive transformer level (volume) control.

I will share a caveat, though:
It is probably best to ensure that the box employs break before make (non-shorting) switches, depending on the exact use to which they're being put.

 

[Multicore]

I wonder if any of you can clear up my confusion to the point that I am able to know which of Amir's (and others') reviews are relevant to my situation.

I've argued this question here before and as a result I do not think there is consensus. I my opinion, if the amp has your main volume control then it's integrated.

So for your practical problem, what reviews to read, I say read them all since you can set and forget a volume control kinda use it like a power amp. That flexibility can be useful in some situations.

Or, put it another way, these days our main volume is on a phone or something so it really don't matter. You could always use an integrated with lots of features functionally like a power amp simply by not using those features.

Skip the review title, look at the pictures and decide from that if the features suit you.

 

[Chr1]

Totally agree -- I am a big fan of decently constructed passive switchboxes to add flexibility (inputs, or even outputs). The image above includes an Azden passive switchbox with some source dubbing functionality. The other box is a three-input switch and a passive transformer level (volume) control.

I will share a caveat, though:
It is probably best to ensure that the box employs break before make (non-shorting) switches, depending on the exact use to which they're being put.

Interesting. Not sure if mine are non-shorting or not.
However, I generally do any switching when components are switched off. Hopefully this is sufficient.

Couldn't find anything online, but they look very similar to these. (ie kinda cheap.)
Any idea how to tell?
(May open one up when home.)
Thanks.

 

[Chr1]

... Pretty sure my other one is however.

The wonderfully named "Nobsound Little Bear"

 

[JeremyFife]

Don't worry about labels. Amplifiers amplify a signal. Some amplifiers have other features too - some have a *lot* of features. Get an Amp that has the power and the features that you want and you will be OK.

There are plenty of options in your (OP's) budget, perhaps too many!

You have stated your power requirement as 60-80 wpc into 8Ohms (as we're old-school I'll assume that this also includes a 'conventional' 20-30 dB gain structure), and budget.

What features would you like? Remote, volume, display/plain, balanced input, small size/big box ... what speakers do you have (in case that makes a difference)?
If you set out what you would like to get that helps narrowing down the options and making sense of all of this

 

[mhardy6647]

Yes, an amplifier is simple.

 

[mhardy6647]

Yes, an amplifier is simple.
View attachment 444268

The rest of that stuff is marketing.

 

[DVinylfan]

As a largely old-school hifi guy, I'm accustomed to the distinction between "power amplifiers" and "integrated amplifiers." Now I see units that seem to blur the line between the two from companies like Topping, Fosi, SMSL, Ayima and such. I've even seen some of them described as "integrated power amplifiers" or "desktop amplifiers." Some have dials on the front that look like volume controls as in an integrated amp, yet they also seem to be described as "power amplifiers" or "speaker amplifiers."

Now, I find myself in a situation that could benefit from a small-sized amplifier—what I think of as a "power amplifier," that is, a unit that sits between a preamp and speakers. I understand that these new amps are Class D and presumably mostly of Chinese origin. But I'm confused about what exactly they are: power amps, integrated amps or something in between.

I wonder if any of you can clear up my confusion to the point that I am able to know which of Amir's (and others') reviews are relevant to my situation. Feel free to also recommend some specific units. (This would be for a full-room system, as opposed to desktop. I don't need more than 60-80 wpc or so (8 ohms) and would like to keep it at about $300 US or less.) THANK YOU!

I recently came back to the amplifier market after almost thirty years, needing to replace a broken power amplifier. Like you I discovered that the traditional lines between integrated, pre-, and power amplifiers have become blurred.
On reflection, given that my need was for a simple power amplifier, and I was looking for the best possible value, my main concern was that I did not buy an amplifier that was unnecessarily complex or included features or functionality that I did not need. This was complicated to an extent by the fact, as you also observed, that devices designated as 'power amplifiers' now had more than one input, and a volume control.
I see people attempting to designate criteria for what is e.g. an 'integrated' amplifier (has a volume control) or what is a 'power' amplifier (has no volume control), but for me these distinctions are no longer really relevant or helpful.
In my particular case I found that there was an advantage to having a 'final stage' (i.e. with speaker terminals) amplifier with two inputs and a volume control, since it allowed me to bypass the internal preamp stages of both my phono preamp and CD player, with some sonic benefit. To that end I chose the Topping PA5 II amplifier and in my system and room have been very happy with the results.
Your particular case might differ, and it might help members here address your query if you provide some more details of the other equipment in your system.
From my own recent experience what at first seemed confusing turned out to be just a more diverse landscape of amplifier choices, and the better for it.

 

[Chaconne]

Thanks so much to everyone for your thoughtful replies. Things are becoming a bit clearer. DVinylfan, the system I'm thinking about would be a secondary one probably using a Quad 66 preamp that I've had in the closet for a few years (still works!). The rest is to be determined.

 

[restorer-john]

In my opinion, if a box can drive a speaker and only has a gain control, it's a power amplifier. To be anything else, it needs source switching, EQ, balance etc.

Mostly I agree. These little boxes are in most cases, just a power stage with a level control up front. That said, there are many coming through with switchable gain (opamp), level pot and a power stage. They are mini sort-of integrated amplifiers.

The entire Integrated Amplifier nomenclature was developed from the original Console + Amplifier designs of the early tube era. The "console" was the control panel (tone/volume/input switching etc) part and the heavy power amplifier sat in the bottom of the cabinet (hopefully) bolted down, often with an umbilical.

Solid state meant the control amplifier could be standalone, lightweight and could interface another less heavy, more compact power amplifier which didn't need to be out of sight in the back of a cabinet gathering dust.

The preamplifier/Power amplifier combination was born and they lived side by side or on top of each other.

Integrating the two chassis and functions into one, produced the Integrated Amplifier. To qualify as an integrated amplifier, there must be active gain in the front end, some controls (balance/tone filters/EQ) and more than one input. Passive attenuation doesn't qualify. That is just a power amp with switchable inputs and a level control.

Nobody would call this vintage Pioneer M90, an "integrated amplifier", yet it has three selectable inputs, stereo ganged Alps shaft driven "volume control", two selectable speaker outputs a line output and headphone jack.

Pioneer in specifications of Pioneer M-90