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I'm a bit amazed by this response I got to a post I did on Facebook...

dorakeg

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Saying that "vinyl records are superior to digital files" (which is what I wrote) is misinformation. Digital is objectively superior in any way we can measure. No if and but on that subject.

And that is a totally different conversation, yes, any one can subjectively prefer what ever they want for what ever reason. No argument from me. What sound better to you does not make it better or worth to what I prefer. Their is a myriad of reason why we like something, but performance is measured objectively and cannot be argued in the case of vinyl vs digital.

I have to say that there is no clear definition of what is considered superior or inferior. When you say its objectively superior, that's your opinion.

You need to understand the definition of what is better or superior. In order for something to be better, it must meet certain criteria/rules/definitions/parameters. These must be deifnite by a authoritative body. Then, this is agreed upon by major players in the industry which becomes a standard. Everyone in the industry then follows this standard and there will be no arguments.

Objective measurements are ultimately just numbers. Even when you have a number, you need to interpret this number. There must be an agreed upon definition (standard) of how to interpret these numbers.

I am not disagreeing with you here. I have been saying for a long long time that audio industry lacks such standards and definitions. This is why there have been so much arguments, misinformation around.
 

ahofer

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Then, this is agreed upon by major players in the industry which becomes a standard. Everyone in the industry then follows this standard and there will be no arguments.
??
 

jsrtheta

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I have to say that there is no clear definition of what is considered superior or inferior. When you say its objectively superior, that's your opinion.

You need to understand the definition of what is better or superior. In order for something to be better, it must meet certain criteria/rules/definitions/parameters. These must be deifnite by a authoritative body. Then, this is agreed upon by major players in the industry which becomes a standard. Everyone in the industry then follows this standard and there will be no arguments.

Objective measurements are ultimately just numbers. Even when you have a number, you need to interpret this number. There must be an agreed upon definition (standard) of how to interpret these numbers.

I am not disagreeing with you here. I have been saying for a long long time that audio industry lacks such standards and definitions. This is why there have been so much arguments, misinformation around.
The "criteria/rules/definitions/parameters" have been established for a very long time. And have been recognized as valid, and reliable, for decades.

Frequency response is measurable. Ditto distortion, noise floor, etc. Why do you think those measurements are reported? Because of those "criteria/rules/definitions/parameters".

"I have been saying for a long long time that audio industry lacks such standards and definitions."

Really? Why do you think Amir and every other serious expert looks at those measurements to make a determination about how a product performs? Because those measurements tell them nothing?

I'm really trying to figure you out, because you talk in vague concepts while the very things you claim to want are easily determinable. I am about as far as you can get from an expert as there is here, and even I can read specifications and make a good judgment about the quality of a component.

You are looking for fairy dust. Most people are content with the facts.
 

bluefuzz

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love to remix some of those other tunes
The multitracks of several other LedZep tracks are floating about the interwebs.

I have multitrack flacs of Ramble On, What Is and What Should Never Be, Heartbreaker and Communication Breakdown. I've been meaning to load them into a DAW and see what I could do with them. I thought I had the multitracks for WLoL too but I can't seem to find that. Though I doubt I could do anything as good as your excellent remix of it anyway ...
 

posvibes

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I have very recently convinced myself one again that vinyl is no longer for me, it hasn't been for me for a long, long while., but spurred on by some of the discussions taking place here, I drag it out and give it a listen and then pack it up and put it away again.

But I am one of those guys that prefers early Steely Dan right up to and including Gaucho in analogue formats, especially the drum sound, when compared to CD. But in the scheme of things that's neither here nor there.
 

dorakeg

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The "criteria/rules/definitions/parameters" have been established for a very long time. And have been recognized as valid, and reliable, for decades.

Frequency response is measurable. Ditto distortion, noise floor, etc. Why do you think those measurements are reported? Because of those "criteria/rules/definitions/parameters".

"I have been saying for a long long time that audio industry lacks such standards and definitions."

Really? Why do you think Amir and every other serious expert looks at those measurements to make a determination about how a product performs? Because those measurements tell them nothing?

I'm really trying to figure you out, because you talk in vague concepts while the very things you claim to want are easily determinable. I am about as far as you can get from an expert as there is here, and even I can read specifications and make a good judgment about the quality of a component.

You are looking for fairy dust. Most people are content with the facts.

Could you show me any evidence that it has been established and by which authority/governing body?

Who are you even to say that you are an expert? Are you certified to be a subject matter expert? If not, are you some renowned figure in the industry which people will agree with you and you develop new standards for the industry?
 
Last edited:

dorakeg

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The "criteria/rules/definitions/parameters" have been established for a very long time. And have been recognized as valid, and reliable, for decades.

Frequency response is measurable. Ditto distortion, noise floor, etc. Why do you think those measurements are reported? Because of those "criteria/rules/definitions/parameters".

"I have been saying for a long long time that audio industry lacks such standards and definitions."

Really? Why do you think Amir and every other serious expert looks at those measurements to make a determination about how a product performs? Because those measurements tell them nothing?

I'm really trying to figure you out, because you talk in vague concepts while the very things you claim to want are easily determinable. I am about as far as you can get from an expert as there is here, and even I can read specifications and make a good judgment about the quality of a component.

You are looking for fairy dust. Most people are content with the facts.

Who established them?? Which governing body established them? Show me where there is a specification written by a governing body that define such parameters are good or bad? IEC? IEEE? ANSI? ISO?

If you proclaim yourself to be an expert, who certify you to be the expert? Are you from a certification body? Do you have any authority which what you say is the final word (because you are authorised to do so)? Do your words carry weight in court of law?

In my industry, an expert is someone is fully qualified and also certified to be a professional in the industry. Also, we follow specific rules and specifications and testing methods/parameter issued by governing bodies. There is no ground for ambiguity. Everything is clearly defined in black and white down to things like procedures, policies etc. We all understood the technical, safety and legal implications of these standards and procedures.
 

ahofer

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1679832904598.gif
 

BDWoody

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I am about as far as you can get from an expert as there is here, and even I can read specifications and make a good judgment about the quality of a component.

If you proclaim yourself to be an expert, who certify you to be the expert? Are you from a certification body? Do you have any authority which what you say is the final word (because you are authorised to do so)? Do your words carry weight in court of law?

What are you talking about?

If that's the best you can do, you can be done here. Maybe you could make more of an effort to read and understand what people are actually saying.
 

EJ3

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Wayne, thanks for the revaluation of how much greater WLL (and others could be).
I would like to tackle a few of these issues (not all can be resolved but some can be made lesser of an issue [and I am basing that on my Technics SL-M3 Linear tracking turntable])
SPECS: From: Audio Database


SL-M3

  • Technics SL-M3​

  • ¥ 99,800 (around 1986)

Commentary​

A full-auto player with linear tracking system.

It is equipped with a unique linear tracking arm that can make tracking error, which causes distortion during playback, and inside force, which causes channel imbalance, close to 0.
The tracking error angle is within ± 0.05 ° by detecting the arm deflection angle with an optical sensor and obtaining a high-precision detection signal.

The tone arm uses a unique dynamic balance system, and the arm bearing uses a 4-point support system gimbal suspension system.
In addition, the arm has a low mass design with an effective mass of 13g including the cartridge. (They fail to mention that it is made from titanium [EJ3])

Diameter 32.5 cm, Weight 2.5 kg, Inertial Mass 427 kg / cm2Large and heavy aluminum die-cast turntable has been adopted.

Continuously variable pitch adjustment within ± 6% is possible.

Equipped with an electronically controlled full auto mechanism.

Equipped with plug-in connector system MM type cartridge.

TNRC and high-density particle board are used for the cabinet.

  • Gimbal suspension bearing structure

Model Rating​

TypeQuartz DD full auto player system
<Turntable portion>
Drive systemDirect drive
Control systemQuartz control
Number of revolutions33 1/3, 45 rpm
Wow flutter0.022%W.R.M.S(JIS C5521)
0.008% W. R. M. S (Rotating Part Only)
Signal-to-noise ratio82 dB (DIN-B, IEC98A weighted)
Cartridge Section
TypePlug-in connector MM type stereo cartridge
Exchange needleEPS-P205ED4(¥15,000)
<General>
Pwer100 VAC, 50Hz/60Hz (in my case 120/220 VAC, 50Hz/60Hz [EJ3])
Power consumption22W
External dimensionsWidth 526x Height 202x Depth 426 mm
Weight13.5kg
- tangential tracking error caused by a pivoting tone arm - masters are cut radially see this group : https://www.facebook.com/groups/2116299488450938. Unlike the cutting head of a mastering lathe - which travels at a perfect 90d tangent to the groove - a stylus is constantly changing it addressing angle to the groove walls. So the modulations of the groove are not faithfully reproduced since the playback stylus is always moving at a non-perpendicular direction as to how it's cut.
Solution: (not perfect but minimizes the problem)
It is equipped with a unique linear tracking arm that can make tracking error, which causes distortion during playback, and inside force, which causes channel imbalance, close to 0.
The tracking error angle is within ± 0.05 ° by detecting the arm deflection angle with an optical sensor and obtaining a high-precision detection signal.
Pivotal tone arms also lead to:
- Skating. As a disc rotates it impinges forces on a contacting surface that cause it to be drawn to the center of the spinning disc. In the shop, we had blank records with no groove that we'd use to set the antiskate mechanisms (usually a spring or weights) that would try to counter act that force. Problem is under compensation causes the stylus to ride up on the side closest to the hub (the left channel) and proper compensation causes the groove closest to the outside (the right channel) to have to drag the stylus against the antiskating force, which causes the stylus to ride up on the outer wall of the groove. It's a real problem that's very hard to deal with.
Solution: (not perfect but minimizes the problem)
Same as 1st one
+ (on my APT/Holman Preamp): The right channel of each of the two phono inputs is internally adjustable ±2 dB for perfect channel balance
+ All outputs are non-inverting. Volume control rated to track left-right to within 1 dB over the entire range.
(Ken Rockwell says: I'm impressed: this is a very important parameter, and this is the only preamp I've ever seen which bothers to specify it).
The multiwiper 10 kΩ volume control has 32 clicks, or 31 intervals, at 10º per click, or room for 36 clicks in 360.º
The volume control uses individually trimmed thick-film resistors to ensure precise channel-to-channel tracking.
- low frequency modulation caused by the slight warpage - causes the woofers of a system (or the panels in planar speaker like an Acoustat or Magnepans) to modulate signals above it. You can see it on a Lissajous display on an oscilloscope. it cause the center dot on a blank groove to bounce. You can also see it in larger woofers moving at super low freq (~1-10Hz).
Solution: (not perfect but minimizes the problem)

20 - 20,000 Hz ±0.5 dB, with ultrasonic and ultrasonic filters active.

Selectable 15 Hz Infrasonic filter (rear panel switch)

Within 0.5 dB at 20 Hz, -3 dB at 15 Hz and > -30 dB at 5 Hz.

Group delay 4 mS at 50 Hz.

If the filter isn't selected, the -3 dB point is 8 Hz.

Interchannel delay: < 0.5 µS. (the limit of audibility is 10 µS.)

When the tone controls are defeated, the -3 dB point is 150 kHz.
- mismatched RIAA equalization curves - this is the reason you hear about how records sound "warm". That warmth is a mismatch between the RIAA curve that was used to cut the master, and the inverse one used in the consumer's gear. See Larry Boden's book. The RIAA curve was developed to increase the play time on an album side. So during cutting it rolls the bass off and increases the treble. On playback, the consumers reproduction system is supposed do the opposite - increase the bass and roll the treble off. Unfortunately, getting two filters to do a perfect inverse is impossible. Just won't happen. See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
Solution: (not perfect but minimizes the problem)
20 - 20,000 Hz ±0.5 dB, with ultrasonic and ultrasonic filters active.

RIAA EQ ±0.5 dB 30 - 15,000 Hz.
- Reduced elasticity of the groove walls on subsequent passes of a stylus. You see, records are made with polyvinyl materials that have plasticizers mixed in. The problem becomes that as the tiny radius of the stylus impinges on the groove wall, it compresses it. That can be an issue if enough time has not elapsed on subsequent plays of the same section of the groove. That can lead to fracturing of the groove wall, since it's already compressed.
Solution: (not perfect but minimizes the problem)
Do not play any side of any record more than once per day, allowing time for the groove to recover from being compressed.
- Asperities in the surface of the vinyl. These cause the noise heard. It's because there's no way to make a perfectly uniform material, so slight variations in the surface are unavoidable.
Solution: none known to me.
- Limited channel separation - a few issues lead to this - one the aforementioned skating forces in addition to the limitations of the groove geometry. An groove with stereo information that is in-phase and monophonic swings the stylus left to right. Channel information is realized by a 45 d up pitch of the stylus movement - which is limited so it limits the separation of the left/right signals.
Solution (not perfect [&, in fact, not that great) Channel Separation: 25dB @1kHz 20dB @10kHz
This helps, though:
It is equipped with a unique linear tracking arm that can make tracking error, which causes distortion during playback, and inside force, which causes channel imbalance, close to 0.
The tracking error angle is within ± 0.05 ° by detecting the arm deflection angle with an optical sensor and obtaining a high-precision detection signal.
But what's really bad is left and right channel signals that are out-of-phase. This causes the cutter head to move vertically. If significant low frequency information is out-of-phase in the audio signal it can cause lift out of the groove path which leads to skips in the groove.
Solution This is sort of an IF AND BY HOW MUCH thing that cannot be controlled at all by the end user of the vinyl..
- Decreasing circumference as the groove goes toward the center of the record. This is obvious as the record is spinning at a constant RPM (revolutions per minute) so that means less material is available for groove modulation.
Solution None that is known to me, as it is a property of the physics involved.

So, while not as objectively good as DIGITAL, the right vinyl setup can be much better than typical vinyl set ups.
And I proved that you can't make what one does to vinyl as good as it is possible to make digital (which I think that (at least from a measurable perspective) we all know. But there are many psychoacoustic and plain old psychological reasons for peoples preferences.
I want to transfer all my albums to digital (many of which cannot be obtained on CD or are not being streamed [& I wouldn't expect them to be]).
This has been a great confirmation for me of my need to digitize (but my audio budget will not allow me to until next year).
 

Newman

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If all I ever heard was an all out CD system vs an all out vinyl system, no specs provided, just play music I would think the vinyl was the better format. I could not dismiss a really good vinyl setup, they sound very very good.
From the way you wrote it, I take it that you haven’t actually made such a comparison and you are guessing which you might prefer.

Remember, if we are talking about good quality productions and not hyper-compressed pop productions, such a comparison is actually a comparison of “what the production team heard in the mastering studio” vs “how an LP changes what the production team heard in the mastering studio”.
 

Gibsonian

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From the way you wrote it, I take it that you haven’t actually made such a comparison and you are guessing which you might prefer.

Remember, if we are talking about good quality productions and not hyper-compressed pop productions, such a comparison is actually a comparison of “what the production team heard in the mastering studio” vs “how an LP changes what the production team heard in the mastering studio”.
An all out system no, haven't heard that on either side, vinyl or digital. I have heard and do have what I would consider a vinyl system not so far off in performance from an all out ($50K or >vinyl system) and the sound is very very good and I would never dismiss it nor underestimate the musical enjoyment one could have with it. I'm guessing you've never heard a really good LP playback system??

Measurement wise, yes, don't see how vinyl can win that one.
 

Newman

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I'm actually addressing your claim that the vinyl would win. Not your claim that vinyl can be "very very good", which will always be a matter of personal standards.

Although on that latter point, there is evidence floating around that more expensive TTs are not audibly better (in controlled listening tests) than the best you can get for around $1000, well set up. In which case, sorry for your $49K loss ;) kidding...kinda.
 

DSJR

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For a giggle, I wonder whether you lot would know a cheap (but serviced) deck like this, fitted with a good medium price MM cartridge and surprisingly 'quiet', compared with an exalted oil rig confection costing many thousands in a blind comparison? Maybe we could, but since our eyes tell us what we want to hear so often, I really do wonder :D

Pictured, there's my V15IVHE in it

DSCF1752.JPG


I come at decks like the above with low expectations and am them pleasantly surprised that the music comes over incredibly well, the belt drive knocking around 10dB off the drove noise figure from memory... The rear transit screw is normally screwed fully down by the way.
 

Pancreas

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I always thought the vinyls is for hipsters

I also wanted get into this fad but changed my mind.

Id rather have CDs than vinyl simply cause of space.

People say vinyl is a nicer experience cause of the art and stuff. It still occupies a lot of space. CDs have art as well. You store plenty of CDs in a box

CD is superior technology

Vinyl simply sound “different” it doesn’t mean is better or sounds better.

People like vinyl for the different tone and the experience of it.
 

Godataloss

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So there was a post talking about how vinyl out sold CD's. And the guy went mentioned how superior to CD's they are. So I posted a counter argument - based on technical reasons.

I eventually posted it on my Facebook page. I got one comment.... from the guy that wrote the book on disc mastering - Larry Boden.
He stated:
Larry Boden "I wrote the book “Basic Disc Mastering” and you have nailed the flaws of disc playback perfectly. My hat is off to you, sir. Well done."

Wow... I find that fascinating... I guess I was right about something... weird for me since I'm typically just an idiot.

Here's the post I wrote:



So i did a rant on some comment concerning vinyl out selling CD's - here it is in it's entirety:

Uhhh. I worked on silly expensive turntables back at Opus One... we were so happy when CD's came out. Why? I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but vinyl/turntables suffer from quite a few issues:

- tangential tracking error caused by a pivoting tone arm - masters are cut radially see this group : https://www.facebook.com/groups/2116299488450938. Unlike the cutting head of a mastering lathe - which travels at a perfect 90d tangent to the groove - a stylus is constantly changing it addressing angle to the groove walls. So the modulations of the groove are not faithfully reproduced since the playback stylus is always moving at a non-perpendicular direction as to how it's cut.

Pivotal tone arms also lead to:
- Skating. As a disc rotates it impinges forces on a contacting surface that cause it to be drawn to the center of the spinning disc. In the shop, we had blank records with no groove that we'd use to set the antiskate mechanisms (usually a spring or weights) that would try to counter act that force. Problem is under compensation causes the stylus to ride up on the side closest to the hub (the left channel) and proper compensation causes the groove closest to the outside (the right channel) to have to drag the stylus against the antiskating force, which causes the stylus to ride up on the outer wall of the groove. It's a real problem that's very hard to deal with.

- low frequency modulation caused by the slight warpage - causes the woofers of a system (or the panels in planar speaker like an Acoustat or Magnepans) to modulate signals above it. You can see it on a Lissajous display on an oscilloscope. it cause the center dot on a blank groove to bounce. You can also see it in larger woofers moving at super low freq (~1-10Hz).

- mismatched RIAA equalization curves - this is the reason you hear about how records sound "warm". That warmth is a mismatch between the RIAA curve that was used to cut the master, and the inverse one used in the consumer's gear. See Larry Boden's book. The RIAA curve was developed to increase the play time on an album side. So during cutting it rolls the bass off and increases the treble. On playback, the consumers reproduction system is supposed do the opposite - increase the bass and roll the treble off. Unfortunately, getting two filters to do a perfect inverse is impossible. Just won't happen. See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

- Reduced elasticity of the groove walls on subsequent passes of a stylus. You see, records are made with polyvinyl materials that have plasticizers mixed in. The problem becomes that as the tiny radius of the stylus impinges on the groove wall, it compresses it. That can be an issue if enough time has not elapsed on subsequent plays of the same section of the groove. That can lead to fracturing of the groove wall, since it's already compressed.

- Asperities in the surface of the vinyl. These cause the noise heard. It's because there's no way to make a perfectly uniform material, so slight variations in the surface are unavoidable.

- Limited channel separation - a few issues lead to this - one the aforementioned skating forces in addition to the limitations of the groove geometry. An groove with stereo information that is in-phase and monophonic swings the stylus left to right. Channel information is realized by a 45 d up pitch of the stylus movement - which is limited so it limits the separation of the left/right signals.

But what's really bad is left and right channel signals that are out-of-phase. This causes the cutter head to move vertically. If significant low frequency information is out-of-phase in the audio signal it can cause lift out of the groove path which leads to skips in the groove.

See the attached photo. Note this is what happened to an early pressing of an early Led Zeppelin release. Why we used scopes set to show Lissajous/X-Y when mixing.... BTW - wanna hear what Whole Lotta Love REALLY sounded like - and no fade out - check this out: https://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/remixoflz.html.

- Decreasing circumference as the groove goes toward the center of the record. This is obvious as the record is spinning at a constant RPM (revolutions per minute) so that means less material is available for groove modulation.

So yea - records suck - sorry. Even the guy that won seven Grammy's for engineering Steely Dan -- the stuff all the golden ears vinyl people seem to like (and it is really good, analog or digital) - hated vinyl - Roger Nichols. He wrote an article called "Snap, Crackle, Pop" that explained the reasons for his becoming an audio engineer (he was originally a nuke engineer)

https://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/Vinyl_Sucks_and_Your_Little_Dog_Too.html


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