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I'm a bit amazed by this response I got to a post I did on Facebook...

ajawamnet

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So there was a post talking about how vinyl out sold CD's. And the guy went mentioned how superior to CD's they are. So I posted a counter argument - based on technical reasons.

I eventually posted it on my Facebook page. I got one comment.... from the guy that wrote the book on disc mastering - Larry Boden.
He stated:
Larry Boden "I wrote the book “Basic Disc Mastering” and you have nailed the flaws of disc playback perfectly. My hat is off to you, sir. Well done."

Wow... I find that fascinating... I guess I was right about something... weird for me since I'm typically just an idiot.

Here's the post I wrote:



So i did a rant on some comment concerning vinyl out selling CD's - here it is in it's entirety:

Uhhh. I worked on silly expensive turntables back at Opus One... we were so happy when CD's came out. Why? I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but vinyl/turntables suffer from quite a few issues:

- tangential tracking error caused by a pivoting tone arm - masters are cut radially see this group : https://www.facebook.com/groups/2116299488450938. Unlike the cutting head of a mastering lathe - which travels at a perfect 90d tangent to the groove - a stylus is constantly changing it addressing angle to the groove walls. So the modulations of the groove are not faithfully reproduced since the playback stylus is always moving at a non-perpendicular direction as to how it's cut.

Pivotal tone arms also lead to:
- Skating. As a disc rotates it impinges forces on a contacting surface that cause it to be drawn to the center of the spinning disc. In the shop, we had blank records with no groove that we'd use to set the antiskate mechanisms (usually a spring or weights) that would try to counter act that force. Problem is under compensation causes the stylus to ride up on the side closest to the hub (the left channel) and proper compensation causes the groove closest to the outside (the right channel) to have to drag the stylus against the antiskating force, which causes the stylus to ride up on the outer wall of the groove. It's a real problem that's very hard to deal with.

- low frequency modulation caused by the slight warpage - causes the woofers of a system (or the panels in planar speaker like an Acoustat or Magnepans) to modulate signals above it. You can see it on a Lissajous display on an oscilloscope. it cause the center dot on a blank groove to bounce. You can also see it in larger woofers moving at super low freq (~1-10Hz).

- mismatched RIAA equalization curves - this is the reason you hear about how records sound "warm". That warmth is a mismatch between the RIAA curve that was used to cut the master, and the inverse one used in the consumer's gear. See Larry Boden's book. The RIAA curve was developed to increase the play time on an album side. So during cutting it rolls the bass off and increases the treble. On playback, the consumers reproduction system is supposed do the opposite - increase the bass and roll the treble off. Unfortunately, getting two filters to do a perfect inverse is impossible. Just won't happen. See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

- Reduced elasticity of the groove walls on subsequent passes of a stylus. You see, records are made with polyvinyl materials that have plasticizers mixed in. The problem becomes that as the tiny radius of the stylus impinges on the groove wall, it compresses it. That can be an issue if enough time has not elapsed on subsequent plays of the same section of the groove. That can lead to fracturing of the groove wall, since it's already compressed.

- Asperities in the surface of the vinyl. These cause the noise heard. It's because there's no way to make a perfectly uniform material, so slight variations in the surface are unavoidable.

- Limited channel separation - a few issues lead to this - one the aforementioned skating forces in addition to the limitations of the groove geometry. An groove with stereo information that is in-phase and monophonic swings the stylus left to right. Channel information is realized by a 45 d up pitch of the stylus movement - which is limited so it limits the separation of the left/right signals.

But what's really bad is left and right channel signals that are out-of-phase. This causes the cutter head to move vertically. If significant low frequency information is out-of-phase in the audio signal it can cause lift out of the groove path which leads to skips in the groove.

See the attached photo. Note this is what happened to an early pressing of an early Led Zeppelin release. Why we used scopes set to show Lissajous/X-Y when mixing.... BTW - wanna hear what Whole Lotta Love REALLY sounded like - and no fade out - check this out: https://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/remixoflz.html.

- Decreasing circumference as the groove goes toward the center of the record. This is obvious as the record is spinning at a constant RPM (revolutions per minute) so that means less material is available for groove modulation.

So yea - records suck - sorry. Even the guy that won seven Grammy's for engineering Steely Dan -- the stuff all the golden ears vinyl people seem to like (and it is really good, analog or digital) - hated vinyl - Roger Nichols. He wrote an article called "Snap, Crackle, Pop" that explained the reasons for his becoming an audio engineer (he was originally a nuke engineer)

https://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/Vinyl_Sucks_and_Your_Little_Dog_Too.html


liftout.jpg
 

Cote Dazur

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the guy went mentioned how superior to CD's they are. So I posted a counter argument - based on technical reasons
Saying vinyl records are superior to digital files played from a CD or hard drive is being misinformed at best. All the argument you mentioned are totally accurate and objectively factual.
That said the medium used to retrieve musical information to be played from a particular sound system set up is only one part of the story. The recording itself and how the speakers interact with the room will have a much more dramatic effect on what we hear than the medium being a digital file or a vinyl record.
People who want to listen digital files do not use CD anymore, they either archive them on hard drive or listen to streaming, people who enjoy listening to vinyl, can also digitize them, but usually prefer to listen to them on a TT.
At the end of the day a good recording will be almost equally enjoyable from both medium if all else is well set up, despite digital technical superiority. Vinyl success and longevity just shows that music is what matters to most.
 

radix

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I do enjoy playing an LP now and then, but I'm sure it's mostly nostalgia kicking off some endorphins. I do have a B&O turntable with a radial tone arm that tracks right-to-left :). And I have been slowly digitizing some of the more rare stuff I have, as digital is so much easier to maintain and playback.

I do not understand how anyone can claim vinyl is better than CD/digital for reproduction. It's a different experience, for sure. Maybe it's the masters? IDK.
 

Cbdb2

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A major problem you missed, wear. Making vinyl records is a mechanical process from start to finish and everything mechanical wears. The cutting head wears making the master, the master wears as it makes stampers, the stampers wear as they press the vinyl, the vinyl wears everytime you play it. So buying the same disc in two different places will give you 2 discs that may sound different. How is that hi-fi?
 

DVDdoug

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I'm glad you got a positive response!

Some people do prefer the sound of records. To them it's "better" and you can't argue with their preferences. But technically, digital is superior and it's better if you accept the concept of high-fidelity meaning true or accurate reproduction.

I like the warm crackle of a fire on a cold night but the "warm crackle" of records always bothered me. :D (Even back in the vinyl days when it didn't bother most people.)
 

norman bates

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Yea, good points.

I could perceive a bit of "distortion" when the record needle was not near the center area of the grooves.

I looked into 9" arms then the obvious, vertical tracking.
I knew I would obsess over platters, arms, needles, etc, so I moved away from vinyl.

early CDs were rough sounding though, like forgot to switch of riaa curve, too much highs and no bass, think early doors and eagles cds.
 
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A

ajawamnet

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Hey Wayne, that remix you did of Whole Lotta Love is fantastic!


Thanks... I recall when I first posted it to Steve Hoffman's forum a lot of hardline "Never remix" kinda guys were digging it.

Those old releases really need it.

The info on that remix page is interesting... all the stuff I came across when doing it. The comparison vid - - https://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawam2/lzcompare_0006.mp4 - - really shows how you could clean up a lot of that. And the VU meter thing you link to shows how tight they played. The theremin part sounds more like what I think Page was going after when he cut it - you can really hear the interaction between him, his bowed stuff and Plant. Also nice to finally hear some of the more intricate syncopation Bonham did with the kick. Cool stuff.

And finally figuring out that pre-echo thing... always wondered about that. All the crap about tape print through, Plants vocals being too powerful, etc... Turns out it's just the scratch vox from the day they recorded it - just bleed from some monitor somewhere on an open mic. Figures. Glad they left it in tho...

Wish the label would let me or some else remix the rest of those first couple releases. I'm sure they'd come out great. The tracking is really good considering that Scully they had at Olympic. I recall working on those and they were interesting beasts. I recall at one public radio station (WDUQ) fixing one of theirs that had a bad capstan motor drive with some old horiz flyback transistor they had laying around in a junk TV.

But yea - love to remix some of those other tunes... My wife will hate me, but it'd be fun to hear what they could sound like when cleaned up a bit.
 

dorakeg

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Saying vinyl records are superior to digital files played from a CD or hard drive is being misinformed at best. All the argument you mentioned are totally accurate and objectively factual.
That said the medium used to retrieve musical information to be played from a particular sound system set up is only one part of the story. The recording itself and how the speakers interact with the room will have a much more dramatic effect on what we hear than the medium being a digital file or a vinyl record.
People who want to listen digital files do not use CD anymore, they either archive them on hard drive or listen to streaming, people who enjoy listening to vinyl, can also digitize them, but usually prefer to listen to them on a TT.
At the end of the day a good recording will be almost equally enjoyable from both medium if all else is well set up, despite digital technical superiority. Vinyl success and longevity just shows that music is what matters to most.

It's not misinformation.

Whether something sounds better or worse is a matter of personal preference by the listener. There are numerous factors which determine what is better or worse and it's entirely up to individual to determine which factors matters most.

Just sharing an example. I have both dynaudio old contour and Kef ls50 peakers. The kef sounds better, esp. when it comes to details in the sound. It sound clearer to me, perhaps I call it more revealing. I believe it also measures better as well. However, one thing the dynaudio wins is listening pleasure.

While the kef sounds great in the beginning, after less than 1hr, I felt tired listening to it. It's just no longer enjoyable anymore. I could keep going on with the dynaudio without feeling fatigue.

I hear about people saying that digital sounds harsh, "hard", analytical while vinyl is more "organic". I can understand where they are coming from. Digital definitely reveal a lot more than vinyl and better sound. However, these qualities might not be what the listener wants.
 

ahofer

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However, these qualities might not be what the listener wants.
But “superior“ has a narrower meaning than “preference”, I think. As long as we don’t equate preference with fidelity, I’m all on board that people should listen to what they like. Although I strongly suspect that preferences can be achieved more reliably by starting with fidelity and *then* altering to taste.
 

DSJR

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Thanks... I recall when I first posted it to Steve Hoffman's forum a lot of hardline "Never remix" kinda guys were digging it.

Those old releases really need it.

The info on that remix page is interesting... all the stuff I came across when doing it. The comparison vid - - https://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawam2/lzcompare_0006.mp4 - - really shows how you could clean up a lot of that. And the VU meter thing you link to shows how tight they played. The theremin part sounds more like what I think Page was going after when he cut it - you can really hear the interaction between him, his bowed stuff and Plant. Also nice to finally hear some of the more intricate syncopation Bonham did with the kick. Cool stuff.

And finally figuring out that pre-echo thing... always wondered about that. All the crap about tape print through, Plants vocals being too powerful, etc... Turns out it's just the scratch vox from the day they recorded it - just bleed from some monitor somewhere on an open mic. Figures. Glad they left it in tho...

Wish the label would let me or some else remix the rest of those first couple releases. I'm sure they'd come out great. The tracking is really good considering that Scully they had at Olympic. I recall working on those and they were interesting beasts. I recall at one public radio station (WDUQ) fixing one of theirs that had a bad capstan motor drive with some old horiz flyback transistor they had laying around in a junk TV.

But yea - love to remix some of those other tunes... My wife will hate me, but it'd be fun to hear what they could sound like when cleaned up a bit.
Mind you sir, WLL and LZ II as an entirety was a formative track/album for me back in 1970 or so, grungy bass and all. Great to hear the original tracks were pretty clean before mixing. I love that album and hope you may be given the opportunity to do some form of remix on other tracks. - At least the multi's are around in a vault somewhere in London I believe and guarded by Jimmy Page, unlike many who suffered at the hands of the terrible Universal fire which wiped out thousands of first gen studio session tapes, if not the finished masters.
 

Gibsonian

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If all I ever heard was an all out CD system vs an all out vinyl system, no specs provided, just play music I would think the vinyl was the better format. I could not dismiss a really good vinyl setup, they sound very very good.
 

DSJR

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I hear about people saying that digital sounds harsh, "hard", analytical while vinyl is more "organic". I can understand where they are coming from. Digital definitely reveal a lot more than vinyl and better sound. However, these qualities might not be what the listener wants.
My take from the UK is that all too many people optimised their sound systems around vinyl, which was a lot more flawed forty years ago than it is today, with pickup response errors at hf and turntables popular here with a somewhat bloated mid bass and lean hard toned amps (with poor sinad to prove it) and 'glossy hf' speakers to balance it. Optimise the often odd-response speakers especially around that and there's no hope any neutral source would 'sound good' on such systems - and it didnt! Owners of Quad ESL's and other speakers with more neutral tones, driven by amps that didn't have a tendency to band limited harshness and especially those people whose preferred music genre was jazz or 'classical' ('Classical' is a terrible term used with apologies), took to digital like ducks to water and promptly began off-loading their vinyl collections wholesale in the 80's. Once I veered back on the straight and narrow, I had absolutely no issues with digital at all, whether it be from a first gen Sony 101, or something more sophisticated from today!

Back in the 90's, a raft of really good 50's and 60's jazz and solo singer albums were coming out on CD and the majority seemed to be mastered by people who deeply cared about the music. The sound on a decent 'monitor grade' speaker was phenomenally good I remember. Sadly, similar music which was multi-tracked, compressed and mixed to high heaven in 90's releases didn't always sound so hot (I have a Humphrey Lyttleton disc I bought having attended two gigs he did with his band back then to support said release and the 'sound' is a disaster...).
 
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ahofer

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If all I ever heard was an all out CD system vs an all out vinyl system, no specs provided, just play music I would think the vinyl was the better format. I could not dismiss a really good vinyl setup, they sound very very good.
Not me. But my reference is classical music and jazz, and I think the distortions of vinyl are more apparent in less processed recordings.

On the other hand, it does bring back a certain liveliness for studio recordings. The delicacy of the needle-groove interface provides some of the high-wire effect of a live performance.
 
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Sgt. Ear Ache

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people will spend all sorts of time, energy and money trying to hunt down and eliminate the source of pops and hums in their systems from "dirty power" or whatever, but oh yeah...vinyl is king of sound! lol. Fremer spends tens of thousands of dollars (or more) on gear and has his house re-wired for sound (rolleyes) and then sits down in his comfy chair and listens to the magic of a metal needle scraping along the surface of a plastic disk. It's hilarious.
 
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DSJR

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Not me. But my reference is classical music and jazz, and I think the distortions of vinyl are more apparent in less processed recordings.
I have an earlier generation of speaker than your main ones and mine have an hf region which is designer-set slightly down with slightly less taut bass giving a more 'organic' and 'flowing' perceived tone in comparison. Before my aided hearing from May last year, even digital was difficult and vinyl all but impossible for me to enjoy. Now, 'digital' sounds delightful with plenty of discrimination returned between different recordings despite the speakers' being passive and their flattering tonal balance (that bass-midrange cone really is something a little special I maintain), but the vinyl still needs to be carefully matched to sound its best (and at its best, it can, albeit in my situation a little 'smaller' in perceived scale than the best oil-rig turntable designs).

This is where vinyl cutting could be an art and back in the 80's, we hunted out for example, Nimbus recuts, TML or Stirling cuts of favoured new releases, as these often sounded clearer than the later plain vanilla auto-cuts done by record companies. Guess which cuts sounded closer to the digital releases though? MoFi releases were often 'different' and not always in a better way, albeit on superior vinyl stock.
 

DSJR

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This ^ alone was worth subscribe to ASR one year+ ago. Thanks @ajawamnet , from a 30+ years Zep fan
Only thirty years? You stripling you :D

Gawd bless 'em, those albums are so damned good still, regardless of the production...
 

Cote Dazur

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It's not misinformation.
Saying that "vinyl records are superior to digital files" (which is what I wrote) is misinformation. Digital is objectively superior in any way we can measure. No if and but on that subject.
Whether something sounds better or worse is a matter of personal preference by the listener
And that is a totally different conversation, yes, any one can subjectively prefer what ever they want for what ever reason. No argument from me. What sound better to you does not make it better or worth to what I prefer. Their is a myriad of reason why we like something, but performance is measured objectively and cannot be argued in the case of vinyl vs digital.
 

jsrtheta

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...People who want to listen digital files do not use CD anymore, they either archive them on hard drive or listen to streaming, people who enjoy listening to vinyl, can also digitize them, but usually prefer to listen to them on a TT...
I use CDs. I don't stream and I don't "archive them on hard drive".

You might want to find a narrower brush to paint with, because I'm far from alone.
 
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