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PaperBoat

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Hello everyone! Newbie here... I have paired my IFI Zen Air DAC with JBL 305p MKII Monitors using IFI Zen Air DAC’s RCA outputs… Will it be safe to use the XBass+ feature of IFI Zen Air DAC when I’m listening to my JBL Speakers? Is XBass+ only meant for headphones and not for speakers? Is XBass+ an ASP? And better than DSP?
 

Thorsten Loesch

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Hello everyone! Newbie here... I have paired my IFI Zen Air DAC with JBL 305p MKII Monitors using IFI Zen Air DAC’s RCA outputs… Will it be safe to use the XBass+ feature of IFI Zen Air DAC when I’m listening to my JBL Speakers?

Yes, it will simply boost bass. Start with the volume lowered. I think the bass boost will be too much.

Is XBass+ only meant for headphones and not for speakers?

XBass is the original bass boost I had designed for classic open back headphones like AKG K701 or Sennheiser HD600.

While considered by some quite brutal, other complain it is nearly inaudible, in reality it is "right" but "generic".

XBass+ is what happens when the Marketing Department wants "XBass that is really, really audible" and because I refuse to compromise on a "correct EQ" gets some random Chinese guy to change the circuit for "more bass".

I would suggest that likely XB+ is excessive mid bass boost. Again, if you like it, it's ok.

Is XBass+ an ASP? And better than DSP?

ASP was a joke of mine. Some chinese marketing futzy asked why we did not have DSP, despite having no clue what DSP was. It was just 3 letters someone told him our product is lacking and he was dejected that there was no way he could sell a product without DSP.

So I quipped "But it has ASP (analogue sound processing) and everyone knows ASP is better than DSP because it's starts with an A.

Is it better? In my considered views, large amounts of fairly broad band boost EQ is best done in the analogue domain, as technically boosting above 0dB in the digital domain causes clipping with full scale signals.

So to have 9dB boost @ 20Hz and 3dB @ 100Hz you in effect need to lower gain by 9dB and you loose 9dB dynamic range.

In the analog domain this can be avoided as there is usually ample headroom at listening levels that can be used to boost bass without overall dynamic range penalties.

Thor
 
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PaperBoat

PaperBoat

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Yes, it will simply boost bass.
Okay... But I would like to know why IFI is claiming that XBass will not make a kick/ bass louder. If IFI XBass is a simple low-shelf filter then why IFI is marketing like this?
IMG_20230116_165921.jpg





XBass+ is what happens when the Marketing Department wants "XBass that is really, really audible" and because I refuse to compromise on a "correct EQ" gets some random Chinese guy to change the circuit for "more bass".
Replacing British circuit with Chinese and calling it "improved component"... Wow what a joke!

IMG_20230116_172141.jpg




ASP was a joke of mine. Some chinese marketing futzy asked why we did not have DSP, despite having no clue what DSP was. It was just 3 letters someone told him our product is lacking and he was dejected that there was no way he could sell a product without DSP.

So I quipped "But it has ASP (analogue sound processing) and everyone knows ASP is better than DSP because it's starts with an A.
ASP causes phase shift... Right?
 

Thorsten Loesch

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If IFI XBass is a simple low-shelf filter then why IFI is marketing like this?

Ask iFi marketing. As said, I designed it to help the low end performance of certain open headphones I thought needed some cojones.

XBass (as in eXtra Bass) was my "working title" for the feature.

The graph shown is actually NOT what XBass should be, it is from an external review of a unit from a batch of xDSD that had a wrong part fitted in the circuit.

1220ifi.sidelab.jpg

This is what it should look like.

As for kick drum, it is usually tuned around 70Hz, so XBass will make the kick drum louder by around 3dB.

1673879692293.png


Yes, I wrote this. This actually applies to the original iCAN from 2013, which had a 2-Step X-Bass. As very few customers ever used the "mild" version most subsequent products deleted this and left only one EQ.

Replacing British circuit with Chinese and calling it "improved component"... Wow what a joke!

Woke's would call you racist and claim that of course anything in China is better than in the west and thus the Chinese must be better.

Speaking of wokism, here todays public service video:


ASP causes phase shift... Right?

So does LF rolloff.

If the EQ matches the Rolloff they should cancel.

An EQ without phaseshift cannot correct a frequency response change that happens analogue (Headphones are analogue).

Thor
 
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PaperBoat

PaperBoat

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Woke's would call you racist and claim that of course anything in China is better than in the west and thus the Chinese must be better.
I'm sorry... it was not my intention to offend someone at all... But I always believe in quality and Chinese products are not eligible for my merit list... They are just not worthy in the audiophile world.






1673893650724.jpg

It's too much for me...





It may sound weird but I'm using some legit professional plugins (Fabfilter Pro MB and DMG Audio Tracklimit) in my JRiver DSP chain and it seems low-end compression in linear phase mode isn't helping me much. I need to tighten up bass response as my room is small...
 
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Thorsten Loesch

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I'm sorry... it was not my intention to offend someone at all...

Stop pandering to snowflakes. You were absolutely right in what you said, I was making, well not quite a joke.

It's time we call BS on "woke". Literally, the future of the free world depends on this nonsense ending.

But I always believe in quality and Chinese products are not eligible for my merit list... They are just not worthy in the audiophile world.

Some copies they make are good enough. But too many are just "box shifters".

View attachment 257493
It's too much for me...

You can combine analogue boost with digital cut EQ.

Another thing to try is to block ports on ported speakers and use the LF EQ to get bass back. It improves transient response.

It may sound weird but I'm using some legit professional plugins (Fabfilter Pro MB and DMG Audio Tracklimit) in my JRiver DSP chain and it seems low-end compression in linear phase mode isn't helping me much. I need to tighten up bass response as my room is small...

I like Waves Audio EQ for "remastering".

EQ the room modes. Use a parametric EQ plugin that uses IIR (infinte impulse response) math.

I wrote a guide on how to EQ a home system using professional hardware EQ devices. I'll dig out a link.

Thor
 
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PaperBoat

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Stop pandering to snowflakes. You were absolutely right in what you said, I was making, well not quite a joke.

It's time we call BS on "woke". Literally, the future of the free world depends on this nonsense ending.
It's far away from the topic but I must say sometimes some limitations are needed for outsiders to sustain a society's culture, legacy, and heritage. Amir please don't get me wrong...





Some copies they make are good enough. But too many are just "box shifters".
Maybe... Edifier is trying hard but still...





You can combine analogue boost with digital cut EQ.
aha! The Pultec punch! This is why I dived into the XBass pool... I've already started experimenting with the Cut (using compressor) and Boost technique...



Another thing to try is to block ports on ported speakers and use the LF EQ to get bass back. It improves transient response.
Okay... My JBL monitors are settled at -3dB for Boundary EQ but blocking ports means converting them into sealed woofers... I have a doubt about the speaker to enclosure ratio will not suitable for sealing them because after all they are not meant for it.





I like Waves Audio EQ for "remastering".

EQ the room modes. Use a parametric EQ plugin that uses IIR (infinte impulse response) math.

I wrote a guide on how to EQ a home system using professional hardware EQ devices. I'll dig out a link.
I would like to read it. The problem is that I can hear the nasty effect of phase shift. Yes, I can hear it... It makes a sound restless.
 

Thorsten Loesch

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aha! The Pultec punch!

Yes and no. A lot of the Pultec punch is the iron and tubes run hot.

This gives more low order harmonics at LF and gives the impression of bass that is objectively not there.

It's called the "Missing Fundamental" effect:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mis...phenomenon is,they are capable of reproducing.

There are pro audio plugin's that use this, one I commonly use is MAXXBass from Waves, again I like the rennessaince version.

I have implemented a version I'd call "Advanced" using an extended bass shelf tuning for the LF Speaker, with dynamic EQ that in effect "slides" between Bass EQ and Bass Harmonics dynamically.

The first version was in this product:


It worked very well with the matching speakers.

Okay... My JBL monitors are settled at -3dB for Boundary EQ but blocking ports means converting them into sealed woofers... I have a doubt about the speaker to enclosure ratio will not suitable for sealing them because after all they are not meant for it.

Blocking the ports on a ported speaker will improve the transient response, at the expense LF output around the port tuning frequency only. Depending on listening conditions the results of a sealed box equalised can be preferable to the ported incarnation.

Small speakers are often tuned to a frequency similar to the vertical (floor to ceiling) room mode and common placement of seated listener and speaker causes strong coupling to this mode.

If other dimensions are multiple or octave related to the vertical mode this gets worse.

In this case a perfect storm of resonances can muddy the bass a lot.

The problem is that I can hear the nasty effect of phase shift. Yes, I can hear it... It makes a sound restless.

I am not sure what you hear is phase shift (I am not doubting you are hearing something you perceive as fidelity impairment, just your conclusion it is phaseshift).

But even if you do, using a linear phase EQ just leaves the phaseshift caused by the original anomaly uncorrected while correcting the frequency response only.

Thor
 
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PaperBoat

PaperBoat

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There are pro audio plugin's that use this, one I commonly use is MAXXBass from Waves, again I like the rennessaince version.
RBass is a saturator... Lowender is even better but it's also a saturator. I'm avoiding saturation... Because saturation adds new harmonics which causes distortion. I've Fabfilter Saturn 2 but not using it. My goal is to control the low end without losing the punch as my room isn't suitable for a simple bass boost.




Blocking the ports on a ported speaker will improve the transient response, at the expense LF output around the port tuning frequency only. Depending on listening conditions the results of a sealed box equalised can be preferable to the ported incarnation.
My JBL monitors have patented ports at their rear panels. I don't know if it is a feasible option or not if I convert my JBL ported monitors to passive radiator monitors.




I am not sure what you hear is phase shift (I am not doubting you are hearing something you perceive as fidelity impairment, just your conclusion it is phaseshift).

But even if you do, using a linear phase EQ just leaves the phaseshift caused by the original anomaly uncorrected while correcting the frequency response only.
When I'm using Fabfilter Pro MB's "Dynamic Phase or Minimum Phase, voices sound harsh.
 
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Thorsten Loesch

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RBass is a saturator... Lowender is even better but it's also a saturator. I'm avoiding saturation...

MaxxBass is not a "saturator".

Because saturation adds new harmonics which causes distortion.

Yes, harmonics not present in the original signal are "distortion".

Now the questions are:

1) Is the distortion audible? If not, why worry?
2a) The distortion is audible, but is it disagreeable and makes music sound worse? If not, why worry?
2b) The distortion is audible, but does it makes music sound better? If so, why worry?
2c) The distortion is audible, it is disagreeable and makes music sound worse? If so, avoid!

So just saying XXX causes distortion is meaningless, because all distortion falls into one of the four classes above.

For example, your "Monitors" produce Distortion. A lot of distortion actually. If I read Amir's measurements correctly the SINAD is ~ 50dB above 1kHz and more like 40dB below 300Hz at an unknown SPL, I expect high but not earsplitting.

MaxxBass will remove low frequencies that cause a lot of distortion in your monitor speaker AND that, by intermodulation, causes audible distortion in the midrange and basically distorts the overall music in a highly objectionable way.

It replaces them with harmonics that cause your hearing to reconstruct the fundamental and hear it even if it is actually absent ONLY for the frequencies it removes. It does not affect the rest of the music spectrum. It means your speakers play louder more cleanly with subjectively lower reaching bass. It usually also works around room resonances in the low LF region now replaced by synthesised MaxxBass, leading to subjectively cleaner and punchier bass.

When I lived in London I DJ'ed at a lot of house parties and small venues all of which had major concerns about noise complaints. These are IME always caused by bass leaking through. My solution was to use Dipole (Open Baffle) Speakers (12" + 6'5" + HF ~ 98dB/2.83V) with the "nulls" oriented towards neighbouring properties and EQ to get them flat to around 120Hz and MaxxBass to get Subjective bass extension to 40Hz. Result, no noise complaints from the music, but noise complaints from people standing outside smoking and talking loud. You cannot win. But MaxxBass really works.

I've Fabfilter Saturn 2 but not using it. My goal is to control the low end without losing the punch as my room isn't suitable for a simple bass boost.

Get speaker setup right first. Then find what the real operational range of your speakers is. That is what frequencies they produce at the SPL you desire without affecting other frequencies badly. Then use a highpass to remove LF that cannot be played without muddying the midrange.

Replace what has been removed and more by adding a subwoofer or using MaxxBass.

Use parametric (digital) EQ to cut down room resonances. This is not convolution room correction (which has issues), but using a wobbled sine wave and SPL meter. The goal is to use the right Q and centre frequency to even out the LF peaks from the room. As Floyd Toole showed, doing that also cut's the resonant tail of these resonnances.

Then shape the overall frequency response according the right mix of common ground targets and personal preference.

Then the drums on Eagles "Hotel California" Live (famous audiophile demo track)


should be full, resonnant and with heft and "moist" like:

post-11-1076499309.jpg


The drums on Rush "Spirit of Radio"


Should be dry, hard, with a rapid punch like:

TELEMMGLPICT000004379039_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqL2PAfGWOBj0LpZQ6m31qI8bHf4DfgeegiUIPq8ZyLgk.jpeg


If they are not like that, you neet re-evaluate your LF EQ.

My JBL monitors have patented ports at their rear panels. I don't know if it is a feasible option or not if I convert My JBL ported monitors to passive radiator monitors.

Passive Radiator and Port are different ways to employ resonance to extend LF response at the expense of phase-shift / group delay at levels that can be audible.

Blocking the port converts the speaker to a sealed box. This costs LF output (but not actually extension) but improves phase-shift / group delay.

The port in the LSR 305 is tuned to around 55Hz. At 40Hz LF output from the sealed box will be same as the ported version. Also, you get the same output at ~ 70..80Hz and upwards. So all the port adds is output below 40Hz-80Hz and it does so at the expense of much worse phase-shift / group delay at LF. With correct placement and EQ the sealed box version can play as low and loud and cleaner.

When I'm using Fabfilter Pro MB's "Dynamic Phase or Minimum Phase, voices sound harsh.

That does not mean you are hearing "phase-shift".

For example, your speaker adds 420 degrees of phaseshift from 63Hz to 4kHz. Does that make "voices sound harsh"?

You are perceiving a fidelity impairment if you use two dramatically different ways of performing equalisation. And you may in fact be mislead by expectation bias and audiophilia nervosa, meaning you are hearing something that is not real. I think it is important that you understand what you are really hearing. Controlled and blind listening (but not ABX) may help you be more clear.

You should probably also try listening tests with varying levels of Harmonic distortion and Phaseshift via good low distortion headphones to get a feel for what you actually can hear.

Thor
 
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