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ifi hip dac review (DAC & Headphone Amp)

welsh

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I ended up hitting the reset button and my A5 is like new again :) I've never had to hit it before and I'm not sure what triggered it to trip. I figured I may as well try... It's odd, my wife leaned over to give me a kiss and it died. Must have been the electricity in the air.
I should have remembered (and recommended) the reset function as the same thing has happened to me… without, sadly, a kiss being involved.
 

domijack281

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I heard the IFI briefly at my friends place with his Sundaras. I thought it sounded good with the bass boost engaged.

I too have Sundaras and hip-dac. Headphones.com pushes the combo of it for sale like hot cakes. I guess since I am new to audiophile entry level world, and have tinnitus, I could not detect or hear distortion. The low end to me just sounds flat until xbass is engaged. I could hear some distortions of vibrations when listening to Billie Eilish's Your Power or Therefore I am, I could hear her vocals sometimes like vibrating glass or she had a cold. I wasn't sure if I was getting distortion or it was revealing defects in master recording. Whenever listening on anything else I couldn't notice those sharp tones. I am not sure if I make sense?

Maybe I destroyed Sundara by taking them once outside for listening (it did not rain) but probably unlikely.

One thing I definitely noticed is poor volume control between 9-10 o clock where I can only tolerate listening volume. Either left or right can seems to sound slightly louder than other. It makes it difficult to use with iphone without volume normalization kicked in or on computer with Tidal exclusive mode.

Guess what iFi has solution for this? IEMatch+ But why not implement low gain in the portable dac/amp instead selling separate accessory that only has 3.5mm input that makes it into a dongle hell? Their tech support also seems to be abysmal. It seems like they don't read questions but provide weird canned responses.
 
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Veri

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One thing I definitely noticed is poor volume control between 9-10 o clock where I can only tolerate listening volume. Either left or right can seems to sound slightly louder than other. It makes it difficult to use with iphone without volume normalization kicked in or on computer with Tidal exclusive mode.

I think almost all iFi's amps suffer from this. Including the ones in their hi-end/luxury segment which IMO is a major fail.
 

kohlerm

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I too have Sundaras and hip-dac. Headphones.com pushes the combo of it for sale like hot cakes. I guess since I am new to audiophile entry level world, and have tinnitus, I could not detect or hear distortion. The low end to me just sounds flat until xbass is engaged. I could hear some distortions of vibrations when listening to Billie Eilish's Your Power or Therefore I am, I could hear her vocals sometimes like vibrating glass or she had a cold. I wasn't sure if I was getting distortion or it was revealing defects in master recording. Whenever listening on anything else I couldn't notice those sharp tones. I am not sure if I make sense?

Maybe I destroyed Sundara by taking them once outside for listening (it did not rain) but probably unlikely.

One thing I definitely noticed is poor volume control between 9-10 o clock where I can only tolerate listening volume. Either left or right can seems to sound slightly louder than other. It makes it difficult to use with iphone without volume normalization kicked in or on computer with Tidal exclusive mode.

Guess what iFi has solution for this? IEMatch+ But why not implement low gain in the portable dac/amp instead selling separate accessory that only has 3.5mm input that makes it into a dongle hell? Their tech support also seems to be abysmal. It seems like they don't read questions but provide weird canned responses.

Tidal direct mode seems to use high gain, not sure why (might cause problems). I switched to normal mode, has the advantage that I can use a software equalizer (on Windows). BTW Tidal direct mode on Android never worked for me.

Also note there a 2 different firmwares for the Hip dac. Might make a difference. I think the vibrations in 'Therefore I am' are there on purpose.
My experience with the bass boost confirms with the measurements. I is just too much. I am currently using the oratory1990 settings with Peace on Windows.

I have no other AMP/dac (with enough power) to compare, lets see whether I can test it with a friends amp.

I am using a balanced cable with the Sundaras BTW. Might make a difference because with balanced more power is available.
 

iFi audio

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@amirm , as always, thanks for the review. I appreciate the fact that we have got a dedicated person in the community loyal to the measurements.

Also, thanks to all the people who build their constructive feedback on a basis of merit. Such an opinion, whether positive or negative is always welcome, as our main goal is to keep on improving. However, if someone tends to share negative comments on a product, he did not even try, then I guess he would do well in politics or should engage with philosophy more.

If you have a product that you think beats the hip dac (a few were brought up in the discussion) that's great. The more the products, the higher the competition and the higher the quality of the products on the market. If you share your measurements, that's even better. We can compare, discuss and learn from each other. However, it is a little infantile to say that you are certain you can find a better product for a cheaper price not even mentioning the exact product, its measurements or the SQ.


I agree with the findings that the output circuit causes a slightly higher distortion. We aimed to design a circuit with a sound signature high on openness, just like a tube amp can. We purposefully employed a very shallow negative feedback design philosophy. It is much closer to a zero negative feedback design than a traditional output stage.

In other words, as the hip dac is an entry-level portable device, we have the following design decisions to make:
1. Excellent measured distortion performance (0.00x%) with a lot of feedback, but the sound will be a bit lifeless and not so musical.
2. Very good measured distortion performance (0.0x%) with minimal feedback, but the sound will be vivid and highly musical.

Can we achieve both? Yes, but not within such a budget and size requirements.

In the end, we are pleased to say that we have achieved our goal and hip dac is one of the most open (if not the most open) sounding DAC/head-amps in its class.

However, as with the zero negative feedback circuits, the measured distortion will be slightly higher, but still, it is kept well under audibility.


Regarding design – Does it remind me of a flask? Of course. Is that a bad thing? Sure not. For a second, we thought of producing a special, limited edition of the hip dac flasks as a joke. Who knows, maybe, one day we'll offer one.
Whether you like the shape and colour it is up to you. We are happy that 100% of our clients and now 99.99%(Amir makes it less monotonous :) ) of reviewers are satisfied with the trendy looks it offers. Hip dac is dedicated to everyone who enjoys high-quality music, but we predominantly thought of the people who are embarking on their audiophile journey during the design stage.


We see a disagreement as a positive phenomenon. We like to be challenged and intellectually stimulated. Just a few of a very long list of reviewers, who would disagree with this review:

"It’s a balanced presentation that’s refined and free of harsh edges. You can listen to the hip-dac for hours and not feel fatigued ... this undemanding nature is still partnered with expressive dynamics and pleasing rhythmic precision."
-what HiFi

"a very natural, uncolored, and slightly warm sound with forward mids ... excellent with great resolution, transparency, and separation. "
-headfonia

"The iFi hip-dac has a detailed, natural, and engaging sound, which will not fatigue over long hours."
-positive-feedback

Going forward, I would challenge everyone to listen to a product first and then look at the specs to avoid hindsight bias. A simple analogy to explain how our mind plays tricks on us. We go to the supermarket, and we find a perfectly fine hummus in a pretty, trendy, eye-catching, original packaging. We obviously buy it. It is so cool-looking we actually send a pic to one of our friends. We get back home. We try it. It is delicious. With the third bite, we start reading the food additives on the label. E160, E164 and E300 draw our attention. Instantaneously, the hummus is not tasty anymore, and all you can taste are the ‘Es’. It gets worse with every bite, to an extent that you throw it out not finishing it. Moreover, the packaging you admired 15 minutes ago turns out unattractive now. It is a shame that the hummus lover did not realise that the additives were all totally natural and harmless and in fact, they made the hummus tastier and healthier. It is a shame the reader did not know that E160 stands for paprika, E164 for saffron and E300 for vitamin C.

I was a victim of this phenomenon multiple times, with many of the dacs, amps, etc., not sounding the same after I've seen the AP tests, even though I loved them at first.
 
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Veri

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@amirm , as always, thanks for the review. I appreciate the fact that we have got a dedicated person in the community loyal to the measurements.

Also, thanks to all the people who build their constructive feedback on a basis of merit. Such an opinion, whether positive or negative is always welcome, as our main goal is to keep on improving. However, if someone tends to share negative comments on a product, he did not even try, then I guess he would do well in politics or should engage with philosophy more.

If you have a product that you think beats the hip dac (a few were brought up in the discussion) that's great. The more the products, the higher the competition and the higher the quality of the products on the market. If you share your measurements, that's even better. We can compare, discuss and learn from each other. However, it is a little infantile to say that you are certain you can find a better product for a cheaper price not even mentioning the exact product, its measurements or the SQ.


I agree with the findings that the output circuit causes a slightly higher distortion. We aimed to design a circuit with a sound signature high on openness, just like a tube amp can. We purposefully employed a very shallow negative feedback design philosophy. It is much closer to a zero negative feedback design than a traditional output stage.

In other words, as the hip dac is an entry-level portable device, we have the following design decisions to make:
1. Excellent measured distortion performance (0.00x%) with a lot of feedback, but the sound will be a bit lifeless and not so musical.
2. Very good measured distortion performance (0.0x%) with minimal feedback, but the sound will be vivid and highly musical.

Can we achieve both? Yes, but not within such a budget and size requirements.

In the end, we are pleased to say that we have achieved our goal and hip dac is one of the most open (if not the most open) sounding DAC/head-amps in its class.

However, as with the zero negative feedback circuits, the measured distortion will be slightly higher, but still, it is kept well under audibility.


Regarding design – Does it remind me of a flask? Of course. Is that a bad thing? Sure not. For a second, we thought of producing a special, limited edition of the hip dac flasks as a joke. Who knows, maybe, one day we'll offer one.
Whether you like the shape and colour it is up to you. We are happy that 100% of our clients and now 99.99%(Amir makes it less monotonous :) ) of reviewers are satisfied with the trendy looks it offers. Hip dac is dedicated to everyone who enjoys high-quality music, but we predominantly thought of the people who are embarking on their audiophile journey during the design stage.


We see a disagreement as a positive phenomenon. We like to be challenged and intellectually stimulated. Just a few of a very long list of reviewers, who would disagree with this review:

"It’s a balanced presentation that’s refined and free of harsh edges. You can listen to the hip-dac for hours and not feel fatigued ... this undemanding nature is still partnered with expressive dynamics and pleasing rhythmic precision."
-what HiFi

"a very natural, uncolored, and slightly warm sound with forward mids ... excellent with great resolution, transparency, and separation. "
-headfonia

"The iFi hip-dac has a detailed, natural, and engaging sound, which will not fatigue over long hours."
-positive-feedback

Going forward, I would challenge everyone to listen to a product first and then look at the specs to avoid hindsight bias. A simple analogy to explain how our mind plays tricks on us. We go to the supermarket, and we find a perfectly fine hummus in a pretty, trendy, eye-catching, original packaging. We obviously buy it. It is so cool-looking we actually send a pic to one of our friends. We get back home. We try it. It is delicious. With the third bite, we start reading the food additives on the label. E160, E164 and E300 draw our attention. Instantaneously, the hummus is not tasty anymore, and all you can taste are the ‘Es’. It gets worse with every bite, to an extent that you throw it out not finishing it. Moreover, the packaging you admired 15 minutes ago turns out unattractive now. It is a shame that the hummus lover did not realise that the additives were all totally natural and harmless and in fact, they made the hummus tastier and healthier. It is a shame the reader did not know that E160 stands for paprika, E164 for saffron and E300 for vitamin C.

I was a victim of this phenomenon multiple times, with many of the dacs, amps, etc., not sounding the same after I've seen the AP tests, even though I loved them at first.
My god iFi. So a whole lot of hand waving, "you need to hear it first", "little/no feedback" secret sauce and you're not even addressing the complaint of the ridiculously bad low level volume pot tracking? :facepalm:
Which is on your much more expensive micro BL line as well by the way, (which I have owned and liked and eventually sold). "SQ" and "open-ness" are not the traits I remember, please, this is an audio science forum yes? You make some good devices.. some at good prices some at less attractive prices (love the Neo's looks!) but you have some growing to do if this post here is the best you can do...
 

iFi audio

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Hi @Veri ,
Thanks for the reminder. Nevertheless, I am not sure why you'd expect your 'complaint' to be addressed first over other people's questions. A bit unfair towards the others.

If you are saying that 'this is Audio Science Review', implying that my answer did not meet the forum's sophistication and scientific level standards, a) respectfully Sir, it's not up to you to define the line b) then it also means that you must be a true expert in the field to feel like you are in the position to lecture others. Usually, you add a lot to the conversation, which is why I am really surprised, that an audio expert like yourself would not know the answer to such a trivial question. The channel imbalance in the volume pot is one of the most common phenomena in the realm of audio. Love the look of your avatar ;)

It's just a natural occurrence with Analogue volume controls. ALL analog pots, without exception, suffer from some degree of imbalance no matter the brand or price. It doesn’t happen with the digital volume control because the volume is balanced digitally. At low volumes, the signal input voltage is dropped over virtually the entire length of the resistance tracks. Making two tracks (L/R) identical, especially when they are attempting to create a semi-logarithmic relationship in the material (resistance vs rotation) is difficult. There are a few factors that can minimize the imbalance:

A) The size of the product. It is a challenge to find the pots with perfect channel matching small enough to fit in the smaller products. Practical Devices explain that due to mechanical tolerance (slop), the left channel wiper will never be exactly in the same position as the right wiper. Even if the two wipers were exactly in the same position along their respective resistive tracks, the tracks themselves won't exactly match each other - the two tracks will not be attached to the body of the pot in exactly the same place, and the composition of the two tracks (i.e. percent carbon content, which give the tracks their resistivity) will be slightly different. And finally, for a pot with an “audio taper”, the resistivity of the track itself (i.e. “ohms per millimeter”) has to vary with position - very very difficult for the pot maker to match.

Size does matter here, since for a given mechanical and resistivity tolerance, a pot with a longer resistive track will have proportionally better matching than that with a shorter resistive track (and a longer track means a physically bigger pot). Thus the problem with physically small pots.


B) Hand-test every single pot before they make it to the product. We are paying closer attention to it and the imbalance improved significantly.


All our devices use an Analogue volume control, which will ultimately give you better sound than a digital volume control. However, the optimum position for the volume control is between 12 o’clock and 3 o’clock. We recommend using iEmatch or other settings to reduce the volume if this it too loud. IF you go lower than 9 o’clock you will start to lose a channel.

FYI, micro BL is not iFi's premium segment, pro-line is.
 

Veri

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I am no expert for the record. Just an enthusiast.

B) Hand-test every single pot before they make it to the product. We are paying closer attention to it and the imbalance improved significantly.
That's good to hear. Especially when smaller companies like JDS labs can bin their pots quite successfully, I hope iFi will get to this too...

All our devices use an Analogue volume control, which will ultimately give you better sound than a digital volume control. However, the optimum position for the volume control is between 12 o’clock and 3 o’clock. We recommend using iEmatch or other settings to reduce the volume if this it too loud. IF you go lower than 9 o’clock you will start to lose a channel.

FYI, micro BL is not iFi's premium segment, pro-line is.
A bit sad that you're telling me the €749 iFi iDSD micro signature and the €999 iFi iDSD Diablo are not premium segment and should therefore be forgiven(?) for not having as tight tolerances. I hope iFi can improve on this, truly. I agree analogue volume control can achieve lowest noise, but better sound than digital volume control; I wouldn't go that far.. unless you can prove that? ;)
 

raistlin65

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If you are saying that 'this is Audio Science Review', implying that my answer did not meet the forum's sophistication and scientific level standards, a) respectfully Sir, it's not up to you to define the line b) then it also means that you must be a true expert in the field to feel like you are in the position to lecture others.

Respectfully, you are a newbie to this community. Whereas @Veri has over 7,700 posts and 9,200 likes. Which is a crap load of participation and engagement in a community this size. So likely he does have a very good understanding of the community's expectations.

Versus someone with 10 posts and 14 likes. So while you aren't expected to necessarily understand the conventions and de facto standards of the community, you should be more open to the fact that you have something to learn in that regard.
 

Asylum Seeker

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@amirm , as always, thanks for the review. I appreciate the fact that we have got a dedicated person in the community loyal to the measurements.

Also, thanks to all the people who build their constructive feedback on a basis of merit. Such an opinion, whether positive or negative is always welcome, as our main goal is to keep on improving. However, if someone tends to share negative comments on a product, he did not even try, then I guess he would do well in politics or should engage with philosophy more.

If you have a product that you think beats the hip dac (a few were brought up in the discussion) that's great. The more the products, the higher the competition and the higher the quality of the products on the market. If you share your measurements, that's even better. We can compare, discuss and learn from each other. However, it is a little infantile to say that you are certain you can find a better product for a cheaper price not even mentioning the exact product, its measurements or the SQ.


I agree with the findings that the output circuit causes a slightly higher distortion. We aimed to design a circuit with a sound signature high on openness, just like a tube amp can. We purposefully employed a very shallow negative feedback design philosophy. It is much closer to a zero negative feedback design than a traditional output stage.

In other words, as the hip dac is an entry-level portable device, we have the following design decisions to make:
1. Excellent measured distortion performance (0.00x%) with a lot of feedback, but the sound will be a bit lifeless and not so musical.
2. Very good measured distortion performance (0.0x%) with minimal feedback, but the sound will be vivid and highly musical.

Can we achieve both? Yes, but not within such a budget and size requirements.

In the end, we are pleased to say that we have achieved our goal and hip dac is one of the most open (if not the most open) sounding DAC/head-amps in its class.

However, as with the zero negative feedback circuits, the measured distortion will be slightly higher, but still, it is kept well under audibility.


Regarding design – Does it remind me of a flask? Of course. Is that a bad thing? Sure not. For a second, we thought of producing a special, limited edition of the hip dac flasks as a joke. Who knows, maybe, one day we'll offer one.
Whether you like the shape and colour it is up to you. We are happy that 100% of our clients and now 99.99%(Amir makes it less monotonous :) ) of reviewers are satisfied with the trendy looks it offers. Hip dac is dedicated to everyone who enjoys high-quality music, but we predominantly thought of the people who are embarking on their audiophile journey during the design stage.


We see a disagreement as a positive phenomenon. We like to be challenged and intellectually stimulated. Just a few of a very long list of reviewers, who would disagree with this review:

"It’s a balanced presentation that’s refined and free of harsh edges. You can listen to the hip-dac for hours and not feel fatigued ... this undemanding nature is still partnered with expressive dynamics and pleasing rhythmic precision."
-what HiFi

"a very natural, uncolored, and slightly warm sound with forward mids ... excellent with great resolution, transparency, and separation. "
-headfonia

"The iFi hip-dac has a detailed, natural, and engaging sound, which will not fatigue over long hours."
-positive-feedback

Going forward, I would challenge everyone to listen to a product first and then look at the specs to avoid hindsight bias. A simple analogy to explain how our mind plays tricks on us. We go to the supermarket, and we find a perfectly fine hummus in a pretty, trendy, eye-catching, original packaging. We obviously buy it. It is so cool-looking we actually send a pic to one of our friends. We get back home. We try it. It is delicious. With the third bite, we start reading the food additives on the label. E160, E164 and E300 draw our attention. Instantaneously, the hummus is not tasty anymore, and all you can taste are the ‘Es’. It gets worse with every bite, to an extent that you throw it out not finishing it. Moreover, the packaging you admired 15 minutes ago turns out unattractive now. It is a shame that the hummus lover did not realise that the additives were all totally natural and harmless and in fact, they made the hummus tastier and healthier. It is a shame the reader did not know that E160 stands for paprika, E164 for saffron and E300 for vitamin C.

I was a victim of this phenomenon multiple times, with many of the dacs, amps, etc., not sounding the same after I've seen the AP tests, even though I loved them at first.
The underlying false logic here is, of course, that it can't be BOTH competently implemented and measure well, AND sound good. Indeed, the sad corollary of this "logic" is: "If it measures well, it won't sound good." Naturally, this is exactly the expected response from one whose equipment was found to not measure well. At this point, what else would he say, really? This is not so much as explanation as a rationalization.
 
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domijack281

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The underlying false logic here is, of course, that it can't be BOTH competently implemented and measure well, AND sound good. Indeed, the sad corollary of this "logic" is: "If it measures well, it won't sound good." Naturally, this is exactly the expected response from one whose equipment was found to not measure well. At this point, what else would he say, really? This is not so much as explanation as a rationalization.
The price increase on hip DAC and zen can reflects that IFi is confident their product will continue to sell well despite measurement reviews. Currently Zen CAN is for $189, from $169 MSRP and $149 sale price.
 

Asylum Seeker

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The price increase on hip DAC and zen can reflects that IFi is confident their product will continue to sell well despite measurement reviews. Currently Zen CAN is for $189, from $169 MSRP and $149 sale price.

An acquaintance in the art dealer world told me once, "If a painting doesn't sell, the best thing to do is not to reduce the price, but rather to increase it." The moral of the story is that when quality or performance is judged purely or mainly subjectively, prices tend to become unhinged form reality. For some, this is taken as proof that their subjective analysis is "true" or correct. But others see it for what it is. They see it as the phenomenon I described above.
 
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raif71

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An acquaintance in the art dealer world told me once, "If a painting doesn't sell, the best thing to do is not to reduce the price, but rather to increase it." The moral of the story is that when quality or performance is judged purely or mainly subjectively, prices tend to become unhinged form reality. For some, this is taken as proof that their subjective analysis is "true" or correct. But others see it for what it is. They see it as the phenomenon I described above.
https://www.livemint.com/technology...es-of-electronic-products-11625160844127.html - supply of electronic parts are scarce now, set to increase price of electronic products
 

JJB70

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Parts are scarce and shipping costs are going crazy.
 

Kuppenbender

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@amirm
Regarding design – Does it remind me of a flask? Of course. Is that a bad thing? Sure not. For a second, we thought of producing a special, limited edition of the hip dac flasks as a joke. Who knows, maybe, one day we'll offer one.
Now I get where they’re coming from. Everything’s starting to make sense!
ACEFB42D-7DB6-4588-9C23-95B2A5A9DA32.jpeg

https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipower/
 

domijack281

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I own ifi hip-dac myself, it looks indeed like whisky flask.
Fyi, this is about the max comfortable volume I can listen to just above channel imbalance cutoff on my HifiMan Sundara.

To follow iFirecommendation to listen at 12 o clock, I would need to reduce digital volume to half on source. High-gain mode is almost unusable without getting to channel imbalance zone.

Another recommendation they push to get with hip-dac is IEMatch+ attenuator for $60 to increase volume dynamic range that lacks 4.4mm balanced inputs/outputs and only has 3.5mm TRRS connector and output. So whats the point of getting balanced cable with 4.4mm connector if you can’t use it. Are they drunk? The seemed to be huge effort into nice design but entire practical functionality seems to be afterthought.
3FEB94DB-01E2-4C4B-9807-A6324180EB8C.jpeg
 

iFi audio

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The price increase on hip DAC and zen can reflects that IFi is confident their product will continue to sell well despite measurement reviews. Currently Zen CAN is for $189, from $169 MSRP and $149 sale price.
@domijack281 , Some of the products were upgraded with the new components and now we offer their second generation. The first generation of the Zen Blue or the Zen DAC are still available for $129. When it comes to the other products' price increase it is a result (as pointed by @raif71 and @JJB70 ) of parts being harder to get (many manufacturers closed down) and a massive shipping costs increase (up to 40%).
 
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