If You Believe in Burn-in, Clap Your Hands

[Chrispy]

The HiFi shows I attended, the HiFi shows I watched online, quite often I come across Nordost cables. I also come to know that a few in the hiend space either own or aspire to own Nordost cables. Why is it so?

Super powerful marketing?

Audiophile sheep. Or just like cables that come with tons of bullshit....

 

[Waxx]

The only place in audio where a burn in of significant duration could have measurable differences are tubes and certain (very uncommon) loudspeaker drivers with a ceramic spider (like older Mark Audio drivers).

Tubes that are fresh (never used) react on the high voltage and heater and the components inside must settle, that can take a few hours to days and you can easely (if you hve a tube measurement device) measure the differences.

Ceramic spiders need to loosen up by tiny movements, that's why those speaker builders who use that kind of spiders (very rare) specify that. Older Mark Audio drivers are the most known drivers known for that. Some other drivers have similar spiders but don't specify that because the burn in happened at the factory (but the price is quiet high due to that). Mark Audio does not do that because they want to keep their drivers cheap. Their newer lines don't have that spider, and don't need that burn in anymore.

 

[dlovesmusic]

I never notice any differences with burn in. However I do believe some devices take a bit more time for warm up. My Freya + preamp even after the 60 seconds tube warm up, it still takes a few tracks to sound optimal.

Not a big deal, I just turn it on 20 minutes before I use it.

I also notice that with my Artpro usb interface that I use with a sonarworks mic for taking room measurements. It does appear the first few measurements I took in the first 10-15 minutes look a bit different from the later measurements and the frequency response look more consistent

So nowadays I turn the Artpro on and play music with it for about 20-30 minutes before taking measurements

Not sure if it has anything to do with my cold basement that is always below 18c

 

[ejr]

I like the term "brain-in", that's where the answer, and the problems lie

Yes, I thought that, too. But I was saving it for after others had responded. (The way I would have put it is that you're burning in your ears, not the equipment).

 

[ejr]

There is a difference between warm up (components settling to an optimal operating point) and break-in.

Settling-time is the time equipment needs to reach optimal performance (several minutes after power on) think tubes or SS needing to reach operational temperatures.
Burn-in is a process where a new device undergoes a duration test to weed out early defects.
Break-in is a process where mechanical components can change to reach their designed properties (drivers for instance)
Brain-in is a process where the brain gets used to a 'presentation' and starts to accept the deviations

I am aware (because of my age) that some equipment needed to "warm up" (literally when they had tubes) but I don't know about more recent technology. Again, what I was asking about is if there is any data from measurements that support this.

So far, it seems like most evidence for the benefits (or need for) burn-in is either perceptual, or so minor that it might as well be, which is more or less what I suspected.

 

[solderdude]

Amir has done some 'warming up/settling' measurements which tend to show the noise floor or DC offset or distortion varies a little from power-on to normal state.
This is a matter of minutes.

The 'it sounds better (it is never worse) after xx hours, days or months is always solely caused by brain-in and 'remembering the sound' incorrectly.

The only exception is headphones where the pads actually go through a 'break-in' period and soften up and even differ with temperature.
Then there is the positioning issues with headphones.
Both Tyll and I have made 'break-in' measurements of headphones where the headphones were not moved during that period.

With speakers placement, items in the room being changed over time etc. can also be a reason for perceived change.

Most of the 'audiophile' burn-in nonsense is all down to 'brain-in' (there is no other explanation)

Burn-in is real for CRT and some other displays where a constant picture (or just logo) is always present.
In my job I do a lot of burn-in tests of electronics where the goal is to ensure the crappy parts are going bad within the test period. This results in better longevity warranty of the product.
This is done at freezing and maximum allowed temperatures (usually between 60 and 80 degrees for heat and -20 degrees for cold.
Some fast temperature cycles help here as well.

Burn-in is not needed/required for 'finished consumer' products.
They all should have been tested anyway which takes enough time for electrolytics to 'form'.
This is not needed again. even after a product has been shelved for a few years.

 

[Devnull]

What about the ECU in a car? It performs the same from the day the car leaves the factory until either the car or the ECU dies.

No burn in required.

And it works in extreme temperatures (cold or hot) as well.

Why should audio equipment be any different?

And just to derail things, has anyone ever measured a car sound system at temperature extremes? I could see a difference in mechanical properties of materials of surrounds and soft domes. A vehicle interior can reasonably see a temp swing of -30 to 50C. I can't see the electronics having an audible impact but the speakers might.

 

[Crook]

Here's what the "experts" at Nordost have to say about it:
View attachment 450321

Turns out that if the cable is left unused, it needs to be (re)broken-in. Thankfully, some Nordost dealers offer this cable conditioning as a service, so you don't have to do it yourself. What a value to the consumer!!!
View attachment 450323
Who wouldn't want their cable charges to be neutralized? I mean who wants to have "brittle and bright sound that lacks details"?

I'm with Nordost 100%. My DIY XLRs have been burning in for 2 weeks now. Nearly ready to use.

 

[pkane]

I'm with Nordost 100%. My DIY XLRs have been burning in for 2 weeks now. Nearly ready to use.
View attachment 450464

As a final step, put this into a microwave for 1 minute on High. Don't worry about the sparks and the smoke -- that's how you know that it's really burning in!

 

[wwenze]

I'm with Nordost 100%. My DIY XLRs have been burning in for 2 weeks now. Nearly ready to use.
View attachment 450464

 

[whereisbrian]

i believe in Burnin' Spear (jamaican musical joke inside).

 

[xray]

View attachment 450467

I've never seen a plug like that. What country uses those?

 

[audio_tony]

I've never seen a plug like that. What country uses those?

Looks like the French version of the Schuko socket.

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

If You Believe in Burn-in, Clap Your Hands - over your ears​

 

[Karmacoma]

I've never seen a plug like that. What country uses those?

That's a type E plug, in use in at least 20 countries across Europe Africa Asia and southern America.
Originating from France.
Nowadays I see more and more hybrid Type E/Schuko socket plugs, the Schuko looks a bit more practical.

 

[xray]

Looks like the French version of the Schuko socket.

View attachment 450513

Interesting. That makes the concept of having a male and female end a bit confusing. It's a hermaphroditic plug standard.

 

[Punter]

The term "burn-in" has been hijacked by the snake-oil salesmen. Originally, as pointed out by other respondents, the term was applied to thermionic valves and described a real and essential process for conditioning a new tube. The process was simple enough. Once you had the valve mounted in your circuit, you would run it on filaments for a few hours, strictly no drive. Following a "soak" on filaments, the tube could be driven and used normally. Failure to follow this precaution may result in thermal runaway which would pop the filament and kill the tube. Like a lot of things connected with high-end audiophoolery, requiring a "burn-in" process for everything from RCA interconnects to magic fuses gives these hokey products an air of legitimacy. Indeed, the charlatans have even created special burn-in devices to allow the phool to execute this process in the comfort of their own home

 

[EERecordist]

What about the ECU in a car? It performs the same from the day the car leaves the factory until either the car or the ECU dies.

No burn in required.

And it works in extreme temperatures (cold or hot) as well.

Why should audio equipment be any different?

From direct experience (long ago) and colleagues (today) on the chip side, you are correct on an ECU. Automotive is up there with military and aviation on temperature, moisture, vibration, and supply voltage, resulting in expected lifetime. For space, the highest qualification, add radiation. Some of these long lived space missions deserve a lot of respect for NASA engineering design.

 

[raif71]

View attachment 450467

feedback loop ?

 

[BeeKay]

feedback loop ?

And we allow those "scientists" to spend fortunes on cold fusion lab stuff that allows, if they are lucky, to drive a blender.