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If tubes amplifiers measure poorly, why are they perceived as sounding better?

Than why do you prefer amps that have distortion and coloration to SS ones that dont? You talk in circles and go nowhere. Im starting to wonder how much of what you hear is imagined.
the only amps i prefer driven distortion is guitar tube amps.

i have owned other amps, ss and tube, way back moons ago. before my new journey re sparked.
recent times i had a pl-evo-int amp and you could say it was linearly colored and sounded pleasant until your ears become trained. virtually no perceived distortion until it was turned up say on my klipsch i once had. when i went to revel i immediately could decern and detect inaccuracies in the sound in the mildly to loud, and it was extremely pronounced in the revel speakers. i have since upgraded to what i think to be a more accurately represented audio circuit with more technology and output accuracy. uhm, i dont exactly want to seek for any distortion. and before you reply with "tubes inherently" distort and that may be true, it is also a highly wide band variable comment as that can be inaudible, minuscule, and or highly prominent. some tube amps distort really early, some dont really at all unless the pot is turned to 11. i would agree any distortion is unpleasant
 
the only amps i prefer driven distortion is guitar tube amps.

i have owned other amps, ss and tube, way back moons ago. before my new journey re sparked.
recent times i had a pl-evo-int amp and you could say it was linearly colored and sounded pleasant until your ears become trained. virtually no perceived distortion until it was turned up say on my klipsch i once had. when i went to revel i immediately could decern and detect inaccuracies in the sound in the mildly to loud, and it was extremely pronounced in the revel speakers. i have since upgraded to what i think to be a more accurately represented audio circuit with more technology and output accuracy. uhm, i dont exactly want to seek for any distortion. and before you reply with "tubes inherently" distort and that may be true, it is also a highly wide band variable comment as that can be inaudible, minuscule, and or highly prominent. some tube amps distort really early, some dont really at all unless the pot is turned to 11. i would agree any distortion is unpleasant
I think most tube sound is about frequency response, less damping on woofers and some differences in power ability at lower frequencies when played loud. The distortion thing I believe is way overblown as part of their sound. Most effects are down to the transformers. That is why the idea tube preamps give you tube sound doesn't really work. Unless designed on purpose to have some sound, a tube pre is quite capable of not offering coloration. Some tube power amps can get there, but they weren't common. I think a tube pre amp with an output transformer and loaded down to effectively be a mini-tube power amp of a watt or two could give people the tube sound. The people who like tubes mostly won't believe you however so I can see such product would have limited appeal.

Anyone who thinks tubes are mostly about that 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion can create such a result with Pkane's Distort software. I can save you the trouble and tell you that isn't where "tube sound" is coming from, but you can prove it to yourself if you wish.
 
... liveliness and boom
So then what do these mean? You seem to use many terms that really have no meaning in terms of competent amplifier performance.

Here's the deal: amplifiers exist to make sounds louder. Period. They aren't supposed to add "pop," "sizzle," "liveliness," "life," "soul" or any other such nonsense. And especially not "boom."
 
What do you mean by "dull" and "neutered?"

Just a note: I'm unaware of amplifiers that have the ability to procreate. Can anyone supply an example?
I dunno if this counts, but as time goes by it seems like there are ever more of them here at my house.
 
Anyone who thinks tubes are mostly about that 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion can create such a result with Pkane's Distort software. I can save you the trouble and tell you that isn't where "tube sound" is coming from, but you can prove it to yourself if you wish.

The distortion from tube amps is not constant, it is level dependent. I don't think that pkane's software does that. Having said that, I have PKHarmonic, and not Distort.

BTW to @genesisaudiorack I don't think any of us have a problem with preference. The problem is claiming that something is what it isn't. I have tube amps, and every now and then I think of selling them and pocketing the difference. But every time I look at them, I can't bring myself to do it. I love them not because they are "more accurate". I am not even sure if they actually "sound better" even though there are reasons why they might. I love them because they are beautiful and put me in the mood for music.
 
I dunno if this counts, but as time goes by it seems like there are ever more of them here at my house.
I concur. Reckon it's not only amplifiers tho.
My mrs refuses to believe that my speakers are breeding, and insists it is simply me and my annoying "hoarding ways". Seems I now have three generations of Tannoy T12/V12s
(Perhaps I should suggest that it's actually the speakers inherent "whoring" ways...)
 
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This is a topic that has been discussed over and over again.

My genuine feeling is that the separation of D-class amplifiers is definitely much better than that of tube amplifiers.
When playing music, it is very clear and bright, but this will lead to a very high frequency, because high separation requires prominent high frequencies to distinguish. However, tube amplifiers have very poor separation, but they emphasize low frequencies, so it sounds muddled together.

In terms of real listening experience, D-class amplifiers have too much high frequency, which can easily make people's ears tired. No one likes a woman screaming at home. Tube amplifiers do not have such a problem. Because they emphasize low frequencies, the high frequencies are not harsh and even have a hint of sweetness.

Pure tube amplifiers have very poor separation. Now I always use tubes as the pre-amplifier. After tuning, the D-class maintains a certain degree of separation without being harsh, and it's very pleasant to listen to!
 
If there are differences they will be completely explained by the units respective measurements.

Keith
 
I concur. Reckon it's not only amplifiers tho.
My mrs refuses to believe that my speakers are breeding, and insists it is simply me and my annoying "hoarding ways". Seems I now have three generations of Tannoy T12/V12s
(Perhaps I should suggest that it's actually the speakers inherent "whoring" ways...)
Well, I know for a fact that some of the loudspeakers here are into three-ways.
:cool:

OK, I'll stop now...
 
Oh yes, that tubes can drive men mad ...:cool:
 
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i am just about to get off the tube merry go round.
i have an HP8 tube amp but when i switch between it and my Midgard i am no longer sure i hear any difference whatsoever.
was convinced i did not long back.
my brain was easily led, i guess
 
You could buy a low powered tube amp you like. Load it with a model of your speakers impedance (power resistors, caps and coils), reduce voltage for unity or low gain, use it between source and SS power amp. You'll get all the sound you love with whatever power you need. You'll get all the sound of the tubes. Because there sound is a coloration and one any good SS amp can correctly reproduce. This is not conjecture either it is something I have done a few times.
Excellent post! This experiment would be even more convincing than a circuit simulation (which would also lead to the same conclusion, i.e. that the lf loudness effect is the primary contributor to the tube "sound").

@genesisaudiorack
I understand that you indeed hear something different in your tube amps but there is a scientific explanation to it: It is well proven, as you may have read more than a 1,000 times in this forum, that even small loudness differences are perceived as quality differences in our brain. Where this loudness increase comes from?

The answer is that as others have already pointed out in this thread, you like the bass amplification (let's put aside the psychologically-negative term "coloration") that is caused from the insufficiently low output impedance of the tube amp in combination with the inductive impedance of the speaker. These two components form a low pass RL filter, and any EE with a bachelor degree can easily explain you how it works. Pretty basic stuff.

There's no magic, no boom, no loveliness. Just preference that could also be satisfied with a parametric equalizer. Unless of course your tube amp's damping factor is also amplitude-dependent (in that case, a non linear element is introduced, and the term coloration becomes more relevant than before).
 
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