If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

[ta240]

With tube amps, the appearance may be a bigger draw than the performance is.

and, a few studies show that orange light can be relaxing so the glow from them can help your mood, which will also make music more enjoyable.

 

[fpitas]

and, a few studies show that orange light can be relaxing so the glow from them can help your mood, which will also make music more enjoyable.

Tubes began as light bulbs. It's fitting they should return to their roots.

 

[egellings]

and, a few studies show that orange light can be relaxing so the glow from them can help your mood, which will also make music more enjoyable.

Like a nice warm fireplace crackling away. Same shade of orange to the coals.

 

[ta240]

I always cringe when people say 'tube sound' because I think, in most cases, they are talking about the sound of poor designs. Where the distortion covers so much of the music detail that they find it 'smoother'.

It is also ironic that the little Klipsch speakers are popular with tube people because the speakers have such elevated high frequencies. I then see people asking what tubes would mellow the sound out for them.

Another fun one is swapping different models of tubes into their amp that have different specs and different ideal voltage levels and commenting on the sound of those tubes. When in reality they are commenting on how those tubes sound when they are run outside of their best spec range.

 

[fpitas]

I always cringe when people say 'tube sound' because I think, in most cases, they are talking about the sound of poor designs. Where the distortion covers so much of the music detail that they find it 'smoother'.

It is also ironic that the little Klipsch speakers are popular with tube people because the speakers have such elevated high frequencies. I then see people asking what tubes would mellow the sound out for them.

Another fun one is swapping different models of tubes into their amp that have different specs and different ideal voltage levels and commenting on the sound of those tubes. When in reality they are commenting on how those tubes sound when they are run outside of their best spec range.

You just want to ruin everybody's fun, don't you?

 

[egellings]

I always cringe when people say 'tube sound' because I think, in most cases, they are talking about the sound of poor designs. Where the distortion covers so much of the music detail that they find it 'smoother'.

It is also ironic that the little Klipsch speakers are popular with tube people because the speakers have such elevated high frequencies. I then see people asking what tubes would mellow the sound out for them.

Another fun one is swapping different models of tubes into their amp that have different specs and different ideal voltage levels and commenting on the sound of those tubes. When in reality they are commenting on how those tubes sound when they are run outside of their best spec range.

Tube swapping is okay so long as the swapped tube has the same type number as the original but may be a different brand or vintage. As for tube sound, even with well-designed amplifiers of low distortion, the bulk of that tube sound likely comes from the voltage divider effect of the amplifier's output impedance and that of the speaker. Since speaker impedance varies a lot with frequency while the amplifier's is comparatively constant, you'll hear the effect of the speaker's impedance bouncing the speaker terminal voltage around, and not that of the amplifier so much. With some tube amp impedances being well over an ohm, the effect will be audible. Hopefully, the effect is euphonic to the listener. Sometimes it's not.

 

[mhardy6647]

Well, I'll comment that there is no objective way to consider bowties. And I think you agreed with my point inadvertently:
Among the pleasures of esotericism is feeling special by belonging to a group of initiates that have knowledge that the uninitiated lack.
These are non-technical people who lack the knowledge to honestly say that. They have been brainwashed by salesmen.

[emphasis added]

I mean -- sure there is:

source:

Altec 32A, 32C, Emilar EH1210, EH800, EH500 and Faital Pro STH100

jelabs.blogspot.com

The redoubtable EMILAR EH-800 "bowtie".

source:

The Emilar thread

Check these out! https://www.ebay.com/itm/145084950930?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=9eQvD9n1Tgi&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=0NQk0aGLRNe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY So, tempted but they don’t have the original woofers! They're cool enough that one could consider (consider...

hifihaven.org

 

[egellings]

Great for PA use. Gotta love that efficiency & directivity. As for home hi-fi use, I am not a fan of horns in general.

 

[fpitas]

Great for PA use. Gotta love that efficiency & directivity. As for home hi-fi use, I am not a fan of horns in general.

Things are a bit different these days, in the brave new world of DSP. EQ, digital time delay, and high order crossovers are all possible. JBL makes do with EQ and high order crossovers; if you haven't heard their premium horn speakers, like the K2 S9900, you should.

 

[MAB]

That brings up a question for me.

Though I've owned my tube amps (CJ) for over 20 years, I have never cared about the idea any gear, even my tube amps, need to "warm up" before "sounding
correct" or whatever. I just turn 'em on and listen. (Well, if using my tube pre-amp it does have it's own set "warm up" before it clicks on ready for use...a minute or two I think).

That said, over the past year I've had the occasional impression that the sound changed during, say, the first 20 minutes or so of listening. Like the sound starts off a bit "darkened" with less highs, and then it suddenly opens up a bit and gains the usual sparkle.

My initial impulse is to attribute this only to imagination, some change in my perception happening. But I wonder if I'm wrong: is there some technically plausible explanation for how the sound might audibly change during some warm up period with a tube amp? (Or preamp?)

I would say you should measure it. What you describe is incredibly easy to measure to see if it is your perception changing or your system changing.

 

[egellings]

Things are a bit different these days, in the brave new world of DSP. EQ, digital time delay, and high order crossovers are all possible. JBL makes do with EQ and high order crossovers; if you haven't heard their premium horn speakers, like the K2 S9900, you should.

Agree. I have not heard what the best horn speakers can do.

 

[ta240]

Tube swapping is okay so long as the swapped tube has the same type number as the original but may be a different brand or vintage. As for tube sound, even with well-designed amplifiers of low distortion, the bulk of that tube sound likely comes from the voltage divider effect of the amplifier's output impedance and that of the speaker. Since speaker impedance varies a lot with frequency while the amplifier's is comparatively constant, you'll hear the effect of the speaker's impedance bouncing the speaker terminal voltage around, and not that of the amplifier so much. With some tube amp impedances being well over an ohm, the effect will be audible. Hopefully, the effect is euphonic to the listener. Sometimes it's not.

The most common tube swapping I saw when I followed it was kt88, 6l6gc, el34, kt77, kt66 where people would give impressions of how the different types sounded in their amps. I'd often see things like "you can run KT90s in a 6L6GC without changes and they will just run lower power".
Excellent point on the speaker's interaction. That also plays into the 'this tube amp sounds like..." for one person being much different for the next with different speakers.

 

[ta240]

You just want to ruin everybody's fun, don't you?

I should wait until they all have a tote full of different tube models like me

 

[MattHooper]

I always cringe when people say 'tube sound' because I think, in most cases, they are talking about the sound of poor designs. Where the distortion covers so much of the music detail that they find it 'smoother'.

I think I can hear a teeny loss of information when I compare my tube amplfication to solid state in my system. But not to the degree I think your post implies. Generally speaking, it's my impression when I compare my tube amplification to solid state, that it doesn't sound as much like details are "covered up" but rather "presented slightly differently."

 

[MattHooper]

I would say you should measure it. What you describe is incredibly easy to measure to see if it is your perception changing or your system changing.

That's what someone who enjoys measuring things would say .

Thanks, though I don't have the gear to do so and since I've managed to go decades without desiring it, that trend will likely continue.
I was more curious to see what people who spend time measuring stuff, with appropriate knowledge of the electronics, have to say.

Do you think a change in sound from a "warming up" tube amp is plausible?

 

[Doodski]

That's what someone who enjoys measuring things would say .

Thanks, though I don't have the gear to do so and since I've managed to go decades without desiring it, that trend will likely continue.
I was more curious to see what people who spend time measuring stuff, with appropriate knowledge of the electronics, have to say.

Do you think a change in sound from a "warming up" tube amp is plausible?

My tube amp did sound better after a thorough warm up but I think the tubes where soft/old. I traded it for Altec Lansing horns and compression drivers with diaphragms too before I could replace the tubes.

 

[Ron Texas]

In many classic guitar amps there's also compression. The power supply sags on the attacks when playing loud, reducing gain on those peaks. Done right it sounds great and is a necessary feature of a decent modeller.

I assume that's a characteristic of some hi-fi tube amps too but I seldom see it mentioned.

Once you start talking guitar amps there are all sorts of distortions.

 

[Ron Texas]

That’s single ended, whether tube or transistor. Engineered tube amps have pretty flat frequency response .

Engineered by who? Yeah, it's possible to design around the problems in classic tube amps like the Stereo 70, but why bother?

 

[ta240]

I think I can hear a teeny loss of information when I compare my tube amplfication to solid state in my system. But not to the degree I think your post implies. Generally speaking, it's my impression when I compare my tube amplification to solid state, that it doesn't sound as much like details are "covered up" but rather "presented slightly differently."

I should have included more detail in my comment. I think well made, well maintained tube amps sound quite good. With my SE amp, if I didn't try to play it loud, it was quite clear sounding; just, as you said, with a slightly different presentation. But I think a lot of people listen to questionable examples due to design, age or build and then interpret that sound to be the 'tube sound'

 

[MAB]

That's what someone who enjoys measuring things would say .

Thanks, though I don't have the gear to do so and since I've managed to go decades without desiring it, that trend will likely continue.
I was more curious to see what people who spend time measuring stuff, with appropriate knowledge of the electronics, have to say.

Do you think a change in sound from a "warming up" tube amp is plausible?

Hard to imagine if your amps are and speakers are working properly. I have old tube amps (MC-30 for instance), and I don't perceive any difference as they warm up. I don't have any gear that changes sound like you describe.

Regarding the mic. If you have a computer and $30 spare dollars, you could get a Dayton mic and answer your question. $100 for a UMIK-1. The $30 Dayton would answer this question in 20 mins... No way any of us can answer though, unless we came over to your place with a mic! And, if you suspect your amp is misbehaving (it is after all 20 years old, and it's tube, etc...), you could set up the mic to a laptop, open up REW, do a sweep, crank tunes for 20 mins, do another sweep, compare. You would learn so much about your system. You would also get huge support from the ASR community, as well as the usual odd comments from people like me! And you would answer this question, and move on to better things. I actually don't enjoy measuring, it is tedious. I am motivated by the result. My enjoyment or not of the measurement totally beside the point. I say because this is ASR and you do post lots of questions that beg a simple measurement. And, we never quite get to a solution. You could just get your answer with a cheap mic.

It could be worn out tweeters. I don't know how old your speakers are, but old ferro-fluid tweeters can age (for instance). I don't think this is your case, but I did wear out a pair of the same Seas Excel tweeters you have in your Joseph Audio, but with a lower crossover than they use... A mic would tell you if the tweeters were (for instance) heating up, or you had a crossover component degraded, etc.

I think it's likely perception. Especially if you tend to adjust volume as you listen. If I make a significant volume adjustment, I perceive for a bit of time a new tonal balance which I believe is Fletcher-Munson combined with our mutable perception of hearing. It could be tinnitus.

This is the era of easily available measurement. And you are a member of one of the only measurement-based communities on the web. We also talk about hearing and perception all the time here so you probably already know we can't provide much help with a problem where perception and sound reproduction intersect. You have some interesting classic gear that naturally seems to cause you to question, and has even given you some odd results.