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If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

Julf

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Dunno about that. My lil' old tube amps seemed to have sneaked by that entrance and I'm glad for it. I've still got a modern, well designed Bryston SS amp on hand and prefer the tube amps.

Yes, subjective personal preference has been acknowledged about a gazillion times even in this thread.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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A interesting thing is guitarrists use the '' tubes amplifier DSP, like fractal ax8, etc '' with another tube amplifier in clean channel, not a SS amp in clean channel. Very ferw of them are into SS over tubes.

i remember this amplifier, the clean channel was clean and warm, very dynamic, you feel the strings.
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TimF

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You ask "If tube sound is a myth, why tubes?" I ask you why are there vitamin suppositories? Why are there 125 horsepower motorcycles? Why are there the Andy Warhol prints? Why are there high (oh so high) heels? In any event, here's my take on the Super Bowl: One team had white and red colored uniforms which was ho hum and especially for a Super Bowl. Like wearing a school uniform to the Met Gala. The team designer did add yellow trim and fortunately they chose the just-right shade of yellow. It worked in that it gave a little snap to a mundane outfit. The yellow kid-skin gloves and matching yellow shoes tied it all together into an ensemble. The yellow shoes as accessories--to die for. The following is an analogy with respect to audio tube amplifiers: Regarding specs, the mid 50's Porsche 550 spyder had a 1,500 cc boxer engine, and about 108-110 horsepower. It was very snappy for its time (the car James Dean drove when he died). It's snappiness was likely due to the fact that it weighted less than 1,400 lbs. It won races. It wouldn't win races today against today's cars. Not by a long shot. Give me an Arial Atom with a Honda Civic Type R powertrain. For the same reason I don't want a tube amplifier.
 
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BrokenEnglishGuy

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i still don't get why 1 watt in SS is different than 1w in Tubes.


As guitarrist (im not one, just a casual guitar player ) is obvious, for example a typical amp entry level is 15w in guitars, but a 1w tube amp can do the same and even more louder, why?, is obvious how loud that 1w tube can archive, i mean when i search information in google, and here people most of the opinnion say it's the same, but in reality that doesn't apply, no one guitarrist gonna say a tube amp it's equal or even similar in watts, with 20w you can play a 4x12 cabinet with no problem, with 20w in SS you can't even imagine doing that, that thing gonna clip ugly
Is about impedances? i mean a speakers it's a hard device with multiple impedances along the fr... some speakers has 3.2ohm impedances and some ss are clipping because of that
With just 1w you can play very loud in small cabinet, also there is a lot of Heads with 1w but there is no 1w head in SS bcause doesn't fit in reality, you never gonna see those kind of amp in 1w ss version, and is not because of the impedances or something like that..

ty
 
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egellings

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I enjoy tubes because they're fun. The amps are more like pets than amplifiers to me. I gits to periodically adjust the grid bias on the output pentodes, clean my glass, and in general fret over them. They are home designed & built, so they are my little Fifi's. The glow is the charm. As an EE, I in no way believe that they have any magical sound quality at all, and competent amplification can be had in a fits-in-your-hand switchmode PCB. Oh, and with careful design, they can sound good, too. So it's more aesthetics and pet like nature that draws me to them. For my computer listening, class D is just fine.
 

egellings

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I did a preamp (line stage) with 6CW4 Nuvistors. Way too microphonic to be useable, as I would get feedback howl if I played the music a bit too loud. The itty bitty triodes did sound good, however.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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I did a preamp (line stage) with 6CW4 Nuvistors. Way too microphonic to be useable, as I would get feedback howl if I played the music a bit too loud. The itty bitty triodes did sound good, however.
u need a low gain/microphonic pre amp tubes
 

egellings

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A watt's a watt is a watt. 1volt x 1amp DC in a resistor, as an example. The difference between a 'tube' watt' and a 'S.S. watt' is that the tube watt is delivered to you through a high-ish source resistance, whereas a S.S. watt looks like it's magically coming out of a near dead short. They'll both heat a resistor the same amount in the same amount of time.
 

egellings

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I went with 12AU7 and all was well. The Nuvistor approach was akin to yanking a tablecloth and seeing if I could avoid breaking any of the wine glasses. Wolp! They broke!
 

Julf

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As guitarrist (im not one, just a casual guitar player ) is obvious, for example a typical amp entry level is 15w in guitars, but a 1w tube amp can do the same and even more louder, why?, is obvious how loud that 1w tube can archive, i mean when i search information in google, and here people most of the opinnion say it's the same, but in reality that doesn't apply, no one guitarrist gonna say a tube amp it's equal or even similar in watts, with 20w you can play a 4x12 cabinet with no problem, with 20w in SS you can't even imagine doing that, that thing gonna clip ugly

It is that "clip ugly" that is usually the key. The 1 W tube amp probably delivers a fair bit more than 1 W if you don't care about how much distortion you have, and the sound of a guitar is enhanced by lots of low-order distortion (and the low-pass filtering provided by the output transformer in a tube amp helps keep the higher order harmonics at bay). The "softly" distorted sound also *sounds* much louder (subjectively) even at the same power level.
 

Julf

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A interesting thing is guitarrists use the '' tubes amplifier DSP, like fractal ax8, etc '' with another tube amplifier in clean channel, not a SS amp in clean channel. Very ferw of them are into SS over tubes.

A guitar over a neutral, uncolored and transparent amp and speaker sounds pretty bad. It needs the coloration.
 

ta240

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I enjoy tubes because they're fun. The amps are more like pets than amplifiers to me. I gits to periodically adjust the grid bias on the output pentodes, clean my glass, and in general fret over them. They are home designed & built, so they are my little Fifi's. The glow is the charm. As an EE, I in no way believe that they have any magical sound quality at all, and competent amplification can be had in a fits-in-your-hand switchmode PCB. Oh, and with careful design, they can sound good, too. So it's more aesthetics and pet like nature that draws me to them. For my computer listening, class D is just fine.

They are a lot of fun and when designed and built properly can be quite good. They are the classic cars of the audio world. Sure there are more powerful and more efficient ways to get you to where you want to go but the trip is a lot more fun.

I think what a lot of people think of as "tube sound" comes from poorly designed, poorly built amps or worn out components in old tube amps.
 

ta240

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oh - haha, just ran into this on, of all places, the Roon forum:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/w...iNvfcCIdzqzvLlPN0YMOYC3mUOLdszSrwNvt-FrlqHtVM
:facepalm::rolleyes:

Tube amplifiers sound better because of the euphonic distortions they add to the music, as well as plenty of other reasons I'll cover below.

These are subtle effects most audible to musicians and very dedicated music lovers; casual listeners (people who "listen" with their eyes open while doing something else) usually won't notice, but sometimes the difference is so obvious that people's wives will comment that "wow, that sounds much better" when people use tubes at home.

Well, some people do like the 2nd harmonics but then he does like so many and extrapolates that into 'other things' that also are there. And throws in the "you aren't listening right if you don't hear it" but also contradicts that with the classic "your wife will even hear it".
 

egellings

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My home made circlotron style tube amps are designed for low distortion. I don't want any euphonic coloration. I'm not a member of the SE 300B set at all. The amps have a pet-like appeal to me, and I gits to say "I made it myself.".
 

MakeMineVinyl

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My home made circlotron style tube amps are designed for low distortion. I don't want any euphonic coloration. I'm not a member of the SE 300B set at all. The amps have a pet-like appeal to me, and I gits to say "I made it myself.".
300B amps are fine if they are combined with very sensitive speakers such as horns, so that the amplifier only needs to deliver a fraction of a watt. Distortion at this level is essentially as low as any other amplifier type, and what distortion there is consists of low harmonic order partials which subjectively have little audible impact, even if they were at much higher levels verses higher order distortion components.

As usual in all things, the implementation is everything and there is no black-and-white or absolutes. Certainly if my own SET amps sounded bad, I obviously wouldn't use them, and I'm enough of an engineer to know the difference (and yes, also have the requisite testing equipment and lab). :D
 

egellings

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I agree that 300B amps can sound good with the right speakers, but they won't be accurate since they seldom use corrective feedback. If you get the right combination, though, the sound can be pleasing. If it tickles your nun-handles the right way, you're in.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I agree that 300B amps can sound good with the right speakers, but they won't be accurate since they seldom use corrective feedback. If you get the right combination, though, the sound can be pleasing. If it tickles your nun-handles the right way, you're in.
Mine does use feedback and the speakers are 107dB/watt efficient, in addition to the system being actively crossed over, so the SET only has to drive frequencies above 500Hz. Again, its all in the implementation. It would be easy to find a system which would prove your assumption of course, but this is true of all things in life.
 
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