If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

[TankTop]

which is why McIntosh uses an output transformer on all amps, tube and SS...

I read on the Internet that output transformers suck and are old technology so Mcintosh sucks to

 

[Julf]

which is why McIntosh uses an output transformer on all amps, tube and SS...

To destroy damping factor and frequency response, and to cause distortion?

Actually one of the real accomplishment of McIntosh is a circuit topology and transformer setup that minimizes the effects, but there is no need for a transformer in a solid state amp.

 

[MDAguy]

Feedback is feedback, no matter if it is a tube amp or a solid state amp. Exactly the same purpose, exactly the same effect. So not sure about your point.

to Quote from Nelson Pass..

What we found is that with high level of feedback, the overall
distortion is indeed lower vs. with no feedback. But what
is interesting is that although feedback has lower distortion,
there are higher harmonics of distortion that occur in peaks.
These peaks are narrow so they don't add up much to the
overall distortion, but I guess that's why high feedback
amplifier usually sound less musical vs. no feedback amp.

 

[MDAguy]

To destroy damping factor and frequency response, and to cause distortion?
.

It keeps a constant impedence load on the amp and therefore the amp puts out a constant single power level versus the variable levels of amps without them

 

[SIY]

to Quote from Nelson Pass..

What we found is that with high level of feedback, the overall
distortion is indeed lower vs. with no feedback. But what
is interesting is that although feedback has lower distortion,
there are higher harmonics of distortion that occur in peaks.
These peaks are narrow so they don't add up much to the
overall distortion, but I guess that's why high feedback
amplifier usually sound less musical vs. no feedback amp.

“But you can’t hear that difference unless you peek. Because right versus left brain.” Maybe there’s alpha waves involved.

 

[Julf]

It keeps a constant impedence load on the amp and therefore the amp puts out a constant single power level versus the variable levels of amps without them

And that is important exactly why? Most modern speakers are designed to be driven by a low output impedance amp (basically a voltage source).

 

[andreasmaaan]

to Quote from Nelson Pass..

What we found is that with high level of feedback, the overall
distortion is indeed lower vs. with no feedback. But what
is interesting is that although feedback has lower distortion,
there are higher harmonics of distortion that occur in peaks.
These peaks are narrow so they don't add up much to the
overall distortion, but I guess that's why high feedback
amplifier usually sound less musical vs. no feedback amp.

The last part of that statement ("high feedback amplifiers usually sound less musical vs. no feedback amplifiers") is based on what exactly (other than sighted subjective impressions)?

The rest of the statement is also dubious; see here for an explanation of why.

 

[Frank Dernie]

IMO low feedback amps only sound different into real speakers because their higher output impedance alters the frequency response.

 

[MDAguy]

“But you can’t hear that difference unless you peek. Because right versus left brain.” Maybe there’s alpha waves involved.

if a tree falls in the forrest and nobody is there to hear it, does that mean it wasn't an audible noise?

Lazy designs are lazy, whether they manifest or not.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Lazy designs are lazy, whether they manifest or not.

Are you calling feedback designs lazy? I'm confused

 

[MDAguy]

The last part of that statement ("high feedback amplifiers usually sound less musical vs. no feedback amplifiers") is based on what exactly (other than sighted subjective impressions)?

The rest of the statement is also dubious; see here for an explanation of why.

That would be between you and Nelson Pass... I'm merely the messenger. I have heard the same from other sources however.

I do think it comes down to "measurements" vs tone ... one measures well the other sounds "well" ..

 

[Julf]

to Quote from Nelson Pass..

What we found is that with high level of feedback, the overall
distortion is indeed lower vs. with no feedback. But what
is interesting is that although feedback has lower distortion,
there are higher harmonics of distortion that occur in peaks.
These peaks are narrow so they don't add up much to the
overall distortion, but I guess that's why high feedback
amplifier usually sound less musical vs. no feedback amp.

His opinion is noted. I tend to disregard opinions that talk about "musical" in the context of gear designed to reproduce an audio signal. People are musical (or not). What does "musical" mean in the context of gear? More interestingly, how do you even define "music"?

"This amp is great for western formal music, but awful when playing atonal compositions or Indonesian Gamelan, and just can't keep a beat"?

 

[MDAguy]

Are you calling feedback designs lazy? I'm confused

in a solid state amp, yes.. (not really me, as I'm not an amp designer) but Nelson Pass... who is.

 

[andreasmaaan]

That would be between you and Nelson Pass... I'm merely the messenger. I have heard the same from other sources however.

Let's make it between Bruno Putzeys and Nelson pass then, hey?

 

[Frank Dernie]

That would be between you and Nelson Pass... I'm merely the messenger. I have heard the same from other sources however.

I do think it comes down to "measurements" vs tone ... one measures well the other sounds "well" ..

I think it comes from "it sounds different, it is very expensive and a guru tells us it is better"

 

[MDAguy]

I think it comes from "it sounds different, it is very expensive and a guru tells us it is better"

what makes said guru any less guru than anyone else (here or elsewhere) .. ?

 

[andreasmaaan]

in a solid state amp, yes.. (not really me, as I'm not an amp designer) but Nelson Pass... who is.

I'm not an amp designer either, but I would have thought a good negative feedback circuit were more complex/difficult to design than sticking a transformer on the output and calling it a day...

 

[andreasmaaan]

what makes said guru any less guru than anyone else (here or elsewhere) .. ?

Lack of scientific basis.

 

[MDAguy]

Let's make it between Bruno Putzeys and Nelson pass then, hey?

Are class D and class AB the same with regards to feedback?

 

[Julf]

in a solid state amp, yes.. (not really me, as I'm not an amp designer) but Nelson Pass... who is.

The F-word or, why there is no such thing as too much feedback