If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

[MakeMineVinyl]

Just curious, what is your sureness based on? I do wish a card saying "amp designer" would make me technically and factually infallible, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work that way (just witness some hot-shot "amp designers" spewing absolute BS).

Measurements, experience, longevity in the field.

 

[SIY]

Measurements, experience, longevity in the field.

But not actual testing.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

But not actual testing.

Aren't taking measurements the same thing as 'testing'? I think you're looking for some gotcha that doesn't exist. This is getting beyond silly, please stop.

 

[SIY]

Aren't taking measurements the same thing as 'testing'?

Not for audibility claims.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Not for audibility claims.

I didn't claim anything about audibility. In point of fact, I am deaf.

 

[SIY]

I didn't claim anything about audibility. In point of fact, I am deaf.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-is-a-myth-why-tubes.8656/page-23#post-549585

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-is-a-myth-why-tubes.8656/page-23#post-549585

Yes, I said that, but so what? OK I take it all back. You are right. I did in fact sneak around behind the house when I was 10 and smoked cigarettes without my parents knowing. I am imperfect. I failed. I think I think will run for political office.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Yes, I said that, but so what? OK I take it all back. You are right. I did in fact sneak around behind the house when I was 10 and smoked cigarettes without my parents knowing. I am imperfect. I failed. I think I think will run for political office.

Lol, I presume though that you didn't inhale!

 

[Julf]

I think I think will run for political office.

Making vinyl great again?

 

[levimax]

The results of my level matched listening test between a 60 year old Dynaco ST-70 with Amir Measured SINAD of 63 and a new near SOTA Neurochorme Modulus-86 with SINAD of 109 are complete and I can not hear any difference between them either sighted or blind. The “switch” works seamlessly if pushed or released quickly and in that case the music just seems to play continuously and blind I cannot even tell the amps were switched. I am having trouble getting the 16-year-old test subject to participate and will update if he does before I disassemble things.
I can’t say I am surprised but looking at the measurement graphs between the two amps I thought I should hear some difference.

My biggest take away is how important level matching is. When I originally hooked things up before level matching I switched back and forth and was convinced I had made a wiring error as the lower gain amp did not just sound softer but sounded “broken”. I then level matched and miraculously the lower gain amp came to life and sounded exactly the same as the higher gain amp. You can read about it and intellectually accept it but experiencing it firsthand was still an eye opener for me.

 

[Julf]

My biggest take away is how important level matching is. When I originally hooked things up before level matching I switched back and forth and was convinced I had made a wiring error as the lower gain amp did not just sound softer but sounded “broken”. I then level matched and miraculously the lower gain amp came to life and sounded exactly the same as the higher gain amp. You can read about it and intellectually accept it but experiencing it firsthand was still an eye opener for me.

This!

 

[sq225917]

I'm surprised at that statement, having tried nc400 against Tom's mod86p amps level matched, the difference in the bass was pronounced, with the nc400 sounding much tighter and drier even a modest levels well below clipping.

 

[BDWoody]

The results of my level matched listening test between a 60 year old Dynaco ST-70 with Amir Measured SINAD of 63 and a new near SOTA Neurochorme Modulus-86 with SINAD of 109 are complete and I can not hear any difference between them either sighted or blind. The “switch” works seamlessly if pushed or released quickly and in that case the music just seems to play continuously and blind I cannot even tell the amps were switched. I am having trouble getting the 16-year-old test subject to participate and will update if he does before I disassemble things.
I can’t say I am surprised but looking at the measurement graphs between the two amps I thought I should hear some difference.

My biggest take away is how important level matching is. When I originally hooked things up before level matching I switched back and forth and was convinced I had made a wiring error as the lower gain amp did not just sound softer but sounded “broken”. I then level matched and miraculously the lower gain amp came to life and sounded exactly the same as the higher gain amp. You can read about it and intellectually accept it but experiencing it firsthand was still an eye opener for me.

Very nicely done. It is hard to describe the experience to those who haven't gone through the trouble, which I have only done with DAC's. Much harder with amps... Thank you for taking it seriously enough to do it right.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I'm surprised at that statement, having tried nc400 against Tom's mod86p amps level matched, the difference in the bass was pronounced, with the nc400 sounding much tighter and drier even a modest levels well below clipping.

Level-matched and blind?

 

[levimax]

I'm surprised at that statement, having tried nc400 against Tom's mod86p amps level matched, the difference in the bass was pronounced, with the nc400 sounding much tighter and drier even a modest levels well below clipping.

Did you have an assistant switch back and forth so you didn't know which amp way playing?

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm surprised at that statement, having tried nc400 against Tom's mod86p amps level matched, the difference in the bass was pronounced, with the nc400 sounding much tighter and drier even a modest levels well below clipping.

Obligatory question. How did you match levels? Matching by ear is not good enough. Neither will matching using SPL meter work.

 

[ajawamnet]

Maybe you need a tube like this - 15,000 watts plate dissipation:

That runs into coax like this

... btw - that stuff that looks like copper pipe in the background is the same as what he's holding, only rigid

That goes into this

how it mounts:

... and runs into this

And yes, these tubes can be used for audio:

 

[SIY]

The results of my level matched listening test between a 60 year old Dynaco ST-70 with Amir Measured SINAD of 63 and a new near SOTA Neurochorme Modulus-86 with SINAD of 109 are complete and I can not hear any difference between them either sighted or blind. The “switch” works seamlessly if pushed or released quickly and in that case the music just seems to play continuously and blind I cannot even tell the amps were switched. ...looking at the measurement graphs between the two amps I thought I should hear some difference.

You've taken the step that most won't, my congratulations.

Where you start hearing differences is near overload, especially loud bass. Of course, the solution there is a bigger amp.

 

[Deleted member 19195]

There is a solid amount of high-quality valve modelling in professional audio tools, from modelling amplifiers (hardware DSP) for guitarists, to modelling plugins etc for guitar amps and effects (LA2A compressors etc). The best ones essentially run something like SPICE in realtime and they have been refined over the last decade to be indistinguishable from the real thing (yes, I've been involved in blind testing). I can imagine this making it into hifi before too long so people can choose it easily if they wish.

My first Yamaha avr, purchased in 1995 (early dolby pro logic model) had dsp sound modes. There is no reason manufacturers couldn't add several 'tube modes'. The problem with that is it would remove the placebo effect caused by the romantic glowing tubes and visual appearance of antiquated technology. Audiophiles would probably come up with some crazy excuse to reject it.

 

[MattHooper]

The results of my level matched listening test between a 60 year old Dynaco ST-70 with Amir Measured SINAD of 63 and a new near SOTA Neurochorme Modulus-86 with SINAD of 109 are complete and I can not hear any difference between them either sighted or blind. The “switch” works seamlessly if pushed or released quickly and in that case the music just seems to play continuously and blind I cannot even tell the amps were switched. I am having trouble getting the 16-year-old test subject to participate and will update if he does before I disassemble things.
I can’t say I am surprised but looking at the measurement graphs between the two amps I thought I should hear some difference.

My biggest take away is how important level matching is. When I originally hooked things up before level matching I switched back and forth and was convinced I had made a wiring error as the lower gain amp did not just sound softer but sounded “broken”. I then level matched and miraculously the lower gain amp came to life and sounded exactly the same as the higher gain amp. You can read about it and intellectually accept it but experiencing it firsthand was still an eye opener for me.

Absolutely fascinating. Thanks for going to that effort and reporting back, levimax!

And the ST-70 is supposed to be a pretty "classically tubey-sounding" tube amp, as I remember.

I've had numerous eye-opening experiences with blind testing, some of which undermined sonic differences I "heard" sighted, others that offered confirmation. It definitely left powerful lasting impressions that influence how I receive the claims of other audiophiles.

Even in the realm of objective measurement discussions and engineering, one tends to be guided by one's personal experience. How does this test affect your audio views of amps, tube amps etc going forward?