If I listen to music and lower the volume by 60 dB, is that the level of distortion I would hear with a SINAD of 60dB?

[anphex]

Question in thread title!

But to elaborate: If I am listening at a little-louder-than-room-volume and lower the volume of my AVR (without loudness adaption and stuff like this) by let's say 60dB (from 0dB to -60dB) - the sound that I still hear then, is that more or less the volume of distortion I had when listening at 0dB when I would use an amp with SINAD of 60dB?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes pretty much. The frequency distribution would be different for the distortion, but the level would be the same.

 

[anphex]

That's kind of enlightening/disturbing. I tried it with 80dB difference and it's still kind of audible.

 

[AnalogSteph]

It's obviously a worst-case scenario though. Auditory masking will be hiding a fair few things in the presence of a stronger signal.

 

[dasdoing]

That's kind of enlightening/disturbing. I tried it with 80dB difference and it's still kind of audible.

now mix a second song into it at 0dB

 

[Ken Tajalli]

not quite!
just as your eyes adapt in darkness to see dimly lit night-glow objects, that otherwise wouldn't glow in a well lit room (kind-a), the ears also experience something similar.
in a silent environment we can hear -60db sounds, but put it against ambient noise of 20db louder, then they become just about inaudible .
However we may "feel" its existence .
So hearing artifacts of -60db against sounds that are 60db louder (I.e. 0db music) is very difficult, unless it is a frequency related distortion of higher magnitudes, which could be heard as an un-natural brightness of the sound .
Do you get my drift?
Imagine listening to music at normal level, and you may not hear the wife asking if you want a cuppa !
At the same time, if something buzzes in the room, as the kick drums hit, you get annoyed by it, because you can not ignore it.
Why? because it is related to what you are listening to.

 

[escksu]

That's kind of enlightening/disturbing. I tried it with 80dB difference and it's still kind of audible.

Not quite the case. OK, no doubt the volume is similar. However, our ears (or rather brain) works differently.

When you have a single sound at very soft volume, no doubt its very audible. But once you add in another sound at much higher volume, the soft volume one becomes inaudible. This is mainly because our brain treats it as noise and "mask" it out for us.

This is also why we still can hear and decipher what our friends are talking even in a moderately noisy environment. However, you also can't really tell what others are talking (just noise to you).

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yeah mix a 2nd song with the 1st only minus 60 db down. You'll likely never know it's there.

 

[escksu]

Yeah mix a 2nd song with the 1st only minus 60 db down. You'll likely never know it's there.

Yup. You will find it extremely hard to hear 1st song!

And, what makes it even more difficult is that distortion isn't another song. Its more of slight alteration of the same song. Also, it may not be undesirable as well (eg. guitar sound). Sometimes we may not even notice is there because we thought thats how its supposed to sound like (difficult to know without comparison).

 

[solderdude]

On top of that... when you play really loud and you get peaks of say 110dB lowering -60dB gives you an audible 50dB peaks.
When you play at 95dB peaks (so comfortable listening levels) a -60dB attenuation will give 35dB peaks which are at 'whisper' level.
And you can do this with high dynamic and heavily compressed recordings which also will give a different result.
On top of that the other things that have been mentioned (the automatic gain control of the ears which works really slow by the way) and masking.
Peaks in music are harder to detect than using continuous tones.

I found 70dB attenuation in a 'normal' room at comfortable loud levels is enough attenuation to perceive silence with good recordings.
For 'safety' I add 10dB (another halving in perceived loudness) and keep -80dB as a 'good as inaudible' level when enjoying music in home conditions.

 

[kchap]

Question in thread title!

But to elaborate: If I am listening at a little-louder-than-room-volume and lower the volume of my AVR (without loudness adaption and stuff like this) by let's say 60dB (from 0dB to -60dB) - the sound that I still hear then, is that more or less the volume of distortion I had when listening at 0dB when I would use an amp with SINAD of 60dB?

What type of distortion are you referring to? Class B amplifiers suffer from crossover distortion. Similarly ADCs and DACs suffer from quantizing noise, at least those not using dither. Both Class B and digital impose a distortion floor. As the signal level is lowered the distortion increases. It should be inaudible can sound pretty ugly on poorly designed equipment.

On Class A amp of or passive component such as a transformer the SINAD can be the same over wide range. Thermal noise is the limit at the low end.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

On top of that... when you play really loud and you get peaks of say 110dB lowering -60dB gives you an audible 50dB peaks.
When you play at 95dB peaks (so comfortable listening levels) a -60dB attenuation will give 35dB peaks which are at 'whisper' level.
And you can do this with high dynamic and heavily compressed recordings which also will give a different result.
On top of that the other things that have been mentioned (the automatic gain control of the ears which works really slow by the way) and masking.
Peaks in music are harder to detect than using continuous tones.

I found 70dB attenuation in a 'normal' room at comfortable loud levels is enough attenuation to perceive silence with good recordings.
For 'safety' I add 10dB (another halving in perceived loudness) and keep -80dB as a 'good as inaudible' level when enjoying music in home conditions.

I believe the question should be broken into two parts:
- can we hear unrelated (i.e. noise) at -60dB relative to music being played?
- can we hear related (i.e. distortions) at -60dB relative to ...?
I believe noise at -60dB (assuming it is not a high pitched sound we are sensitive to specially) is very difficult to hear, specially if it is benign in nature, like tape noise or even a radio station being picked up. (or wife asking if you want a cuppa!).
BUT, if it is related to the music being played, such as a whisper quiet rattling, buzzing, higher order harmonic distortions, then we can hear them, or at least their effects. But even then it is difficult.
Most headphones, speakers have distortions of higher than -60dB and we listen to them without problem.

 

[abdo123]

Amir measures HARMONIC distortion, not just any distortion. Which psychoaccoustically is much less audible as it's related to the actual signal being played.

it's better to use actual test files with whichever level you would like to simulate.

 

[dennis h]

On top of that... when you play really loud and you get peaks of say 110dB lowering -60dB gives you an audible 50dB peaks.
When you play at 95dB peaks (so comfortable listening levels) a -60dB attenuation will give 35dB peaks which are at 'whisper' level.
And you can do this with high dynamic and heavily compressed recordings which also will give a different result.
On top of that the other things that have been mentioned (the automatic gain control of the ears which works really slow by the way) and masking.
Peaks in music are harder to detect than using continuous tones.

I found 70dB attenuation in a 'normal' room at comfortable loud levels is enough attenuation to perceive silence with good recordings.
For 'safety' I add 10dB (another halving in perceived loudness) and keep -80dB as a 'good as inaudible' level when enjoying music in home conditions.

What are your thoughts with headphones ?

 

[solderdude]

The same... the same SPL is reached.
In most cases, where the amp does not clip it is easier to reach higher SPL than with speakers in a room.
So chances are one may be listening at a higher SPL than with speakers without realizing it.

 

[solderdude]

(or wife asking if you want a cuppa!).

When you actually want a cuppa open headphones and lower listening levels are a good idea.
When you think the wife asks you in order to get you to stand up and make a cuppa closed or NC headphones work best as well as listening at an 'active' and immersing listening level.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

When you actually want a cuppa open headphones and lower listening levels are a good idea.
When you think the wife asks you in order to get you to stand up and make a cuppa closed or NC headphones work best as well as listening at an 'active' and immersing listening level.

And chalk it up as inaudible, sorry darling! ha?
I have learnt a lot since I joined ASR, and not all graph-related.