If DAC's like Topping D10 measure so well, what do the better DACs offer?

[Sukie]

Yes. But for people that just set, forget and enjoy, they will get great value. 10 years later they will still be going strong and for the price, that's great.

For young people, 10 years is a very long time, for others further along their HiFi journey, it's nothing. I have a 30 year old D/A converter here that weighs 12.5kg, has three toroidal transformers in it, each one bigger than that little Topping, and is built no expense spared. It still performs as well as the day it was made. But does it do USB? Nope. USB didn't exist. Neither did the internet. But a cheap USB to coaxial/optical bridge brings it bang up to date if I want that.

Other standalone D/As may outperform it in my collection, but they are plastic things I have little interest in.

I suppose it's like my old dining table and chairs. They're ancient, but extremely well made. Because they're well made they're eminently repairable. I absolutely love sitting on them and they genuinely enhance a meal. I would never dream of replacing them with a cheap and functional set.

People talk about audio jewellery, maybe they should talk about audio furniture!

 

[jhaider]

So, while these inexpensive things may test well for the limited functions they do, they are hardly something you want to take on a multi decade audiophile journey. They offer zero pride of ownership.

So what? There’s nothing “multi decade” about 2 channel digital audio anyway.

IMO a separate DAC is a pointless affectation for most people anyway. The DACs built into players/streamers, AVR/P’s, headphone amps, and even phone dongles are sufficiently transparent. The only audibly relevant use case is if you’re using an all digital box for processing and your amps don’t have digital inputs. For example, if you want Dirac room correction in a 2.1 channel system with low noise floor, but can only fit a half rack component. Then you might want a miniDSP Studio SHD and separate DACs to hide away somewhere, instead of the all in one box. Indeed, that’s the only reason there are separate DACs in our home.

 

[Berwhale]

Neither did the internet

The internet is older than you think. The internet was 'born' in 1981, 39 years ago. The World Wide Web (which most non-technical people consider to be 'the internet') dates from 1989, so it is 31 years old. The modern internet is an evolution of earlier network systems including ARPANET which dates from 1969, 51 years ago.

 

[GeorgeWalk]

Unlike a DAC of adequate specification with no meaningful processing (e.g. room correction, bass management, PEQ), a sneaker can affect performance. Obviously that varies by runner. My wife, a marathoner, bought a pair of the Nike shoes linked by others above during her training for the 2019 NYC marathon, and did not prefer them or wear them in the race.

That said, most $300 sneakers are fashion items, not technical products. And for $40 you're going to get something that's either all petrochemical or with a rat-skin upper!

I agree, most >$150 running shoes are marketing hype. I run marathons in the same $100 model I have for years (sometimes I can find them on sale for less.)

For me the decision is about specific features: lightweight (9 oz or less), nuetral (not over or under pronate, not to cushioned, and plenty of room in the toe box. It's about the features I need, not about status and brand recognition.

In DAC, Amps, and audio gear I am looking for performance first: how does it measure, does it have the features I want (BT, USB, balanced/unbalnced...)

 

[ex audiophile]

Give me your clothes, your running shoes, and your DAC

 

[raistlin65]

Yes. But for people that just set, forget and enjoy, they will get great value. 10 years later they will still be going strong and for the price, that's great.

For young people, 10 years is a very long time, for others further along their HiFi journey, it's nothing. I have a 30 year old D/A converter here that weighs 12.5kg, has three toroidal transformers in it, each one bigger than that little Topping, and is built no expense spared. It still performs as well as the day it was made. But does it do USB? Nope. USB didn't exist. Neither did the internet. But a cheap USB to coaxial/optical bridge brings it bang up to date if I want that.

Other standalone D/As may outperform it in my collection, but they are plastic things I have little interest in.

Yep. 10 years is a long time in DAC evolution at the rate we have seen.

I wouldn't be surprised ifi in5 years, some of these extra features that $100 DACs don't offer become available on $50 DACs.

 

[restorer-john]

The internet is older than you think. The internet was 'born' in 1981, 39 years ago. The World Wide Web (which most non-technical people consider to be 'the internet') dates from 1989, so it is 31 years old. The modern internet is an evolution of earlier network systems including ARPANET which dates from 1969, 51 years ago.

Let's not play pedantics. I was using inter connected mail, bulletin boards and modem coupled communication in the late 1980s too. It was not the internet as most people understand it. Computers were the province of geeks in the consumer space and professionals in the business/research space. They were primitive and the first real operating system to make connecting to the internet easy was Windows 95. Prior to that, it was difficult for all but a seasoned computer nerd to get a communications stack, serial ports and slow hardware modems doing anything other than 9,600 if you were really lucky. Do you remember how much fun it was getting Windows for Workgroups (3.11) to work with a standalone modem, winsock and get any form of reliable communication via copper twisted pair telephone lines?

People were not flocking to the "internet" in vast droves until the mid to late 1990s. Most businesses didn't even have an internet presence and as for distribution of anything except grainy images and small files, it was still a plaything for people who didn't mind paying for multiple call dropouts and long waits for anything to happen.

In 1987-91, I was selling computers (among other things). 2400 baud modems were still around. 9600 baud was new. There was no internet as consumers know it as there were no internet service providers until well into 1990. Basically, by 1991, you could get email, that was it. It was a plaything and very cool. There were still bulletin boards (BBS), usenet in big institutions and access to some company servers with dedicated software and suitable servers.

 

[Berwhale]

Let's not play pedantics. I was using inter connected mail, bulletin boards and modem coupled communication in the late 1980s too. It was not the internet as most people understand it. Computers were the province of geeks in the consumer space and professionals in the business/research space. They were primitive and the first real operating system to make connecting to the internet easy was Windows 95. Prior to that, it was difficult for all but a seasoned computer nerd to get a communications stack, serial ports and slow hardware modems doing anything other than 9,600 if you were really lucky. Do you remember how much fun it was getting Windows for Workgroups (3.11) to work with a standalone modem, winsock and get any form of reliable communication via copper twisted pair telephone lines?

People were not flocking to the "internet" in vast droves until the mid to late 1990s. Most businesses didn't even have an internet presence and as for distribution of anything except grainy images and small files, it was still a plaything for people who didn't mind paying for multiple call dropouts and long waits for anything to happen.

In 1987-91, I was selling computers (among other things). 2400 baud modems were still around. 9600 baud was new. There was no internet as consumers know it as there were no internet service providers until well into 1990. Basically, by 1991, you could get email, that was it. It was a plaything and very cool. There were still bulletin boards (BBS), usenet in big institutions and access to some company servers with dedicated software and suitable servers.

You stated that the 'internet did not exist'. Clearly it did. You can write as much irrelevant fluff about it as you like, but it doesn't change the fact.

In the early 90's I was building and deploying PCs at American Express's EMEA HQ in Brighton, UK with IBM PC DOS 5.0, Windows 3.1 (not 3.11, so no niceties like a built in IP stack). I had to simultaneously connect these PCs via Token Ring (with a huge monolithic driver) to 3270 sessions on an IBM mainframe via DLC protocol, Netware 3.11 via IPX/SPX and a Stratus mainframe via a 3rd party TCP/IP stack (Chameleon?). I managed to get 396KB free in DOS after carefully crafting config.sys to arrange the required adapters and drivers in the upper and high memory areas. This was just enough free memory to get Windows to boot. So yes, I do remember what it was like, but none of this changes the fact that the internet existed 10 years earlier.

 

[Jimbob54]

You stated that the 'internet did not exist'. Clearly it did. You can write as much irrelevant fluff about it as you like, but it doesn't change the fact.

In the early 90's I was building and deploying PCs at American Express's EMEA HQ in Brighton, UK with IBM PC DOS 5.0, Windows 3.1 (not 3.11, so no niceties like a built in IP stack). I had to simultaneously connect these PCs via Token Ring (with a huge monolithic driver) to 3270 sessions on an IBM mainframe via DLC protocol, Netware 3.11 via IPX/SPX and a Stratus mainframe via a 3rd party TCP/IP stack (Chameleon?). I managed to get 396KB free in DOS after carefully crafting config.sys to arrange the required adapters and drivers in the upper and high memory areas. This was just enough free memory to get Windows to boot. So yes, I do remember what it was like, but none of this changes the fact that the internet existed 10 years earlier.

Perhaps, but not anything you could get music from into a DAC ;-)

 

[Berwhale]

Perhaps, but not anything you could get music from into a DAC ;-)

MP3 was around then, I almost certainly played some on my SoundBlaster 16

 

[restorer-john]

You stated that the 'internet did not exist'. Clearly it did.

Same as saying the Compact Disc existed in 1979. You couldn't buy one, they weren't manufacturing discs, the format hadn't even been standardized upon, but yes, a digital optical disc existed.

You couldn't buy internet access from an ISP until 1991 anywhere in the world. Even then, it was just email. So the internet as consumers know it did not exist. How hard is it?

 

[Harmonie]

Yes. But for people that just set, forget and enjoy, they will get great value. 10 years later they will still be going strong and for the price, that's great.

For young people, 10 years is a very long time, for others further along their HiFi journey, it's nothing. I have a 30 year old D/A converter here that weighs 12.5kg, has three toroidal transformers in it, each one bigger than that little Topping, and is built no expense spared. It still performs as well as the day it was made. But does it do USB? Nope. USB didn't exist. Neither did the internet. But a cheap USB to coaxial/optical bridge brings it bang up to date if I want that.

Other standalone D/As may outperform it in my collection, but they are plastic things I have little interest in.

I like your posts and wise judgements -
Though both Chinese, your post will make me regret returning my A22 for a D-sub-hundred number ...

I too still keep my 25+ year old US DAC. It's still on (never turned it off) and never failed.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I kind of think buying an expensive DAC is like buying an expensive toaster. Both will get you very fine toast, but maybe you have a pride of ownership factor. Me, I have a pull down on drawer on my kitchen appliances where I hide them when they're not in use. Same plan for my Dacs/amps as well. A nice BDI cabinet will be a better way for me to spend the two grand than on Mac Amps and DACS which won't sound any better than Purifi amps and just about any $100 Chinese DAC.

 

[GDK]

I kind of think buying an expensive DAC is like buying an expensive toaster.

I wonder what the toaster equivalent of the Mola Mola Tambaqui would be like?

 

[Robin L]

It's a cheap Chinese D/A converter that performs well enough - for now.

If you are a compulsive hobbyist, upgrader, cable tweaking fiddler, those PCB mount RCAs will crack off the PCB in no time. The cheap Toslink receiver plastic molding will get worn and the optical cable will fall out. The PCB mount USB jack is probably as cheap as it gets and dry joints will be your enemy.

It's so small and lightweight you will have to stick it to the desk/rack with double sided tape so the weight of the attached cables don't pull it onto the floor and cause the problems I described above.

So, while these inexpensive things may test well for the limited functions they do, they are hardly something you want to take on a multi decade audiophile journey. They offer zero pride of ownership. They are the Timex or Casio of HiFi. Enjoy them for what they are, but don't for one second think they are anything more than a temporary part of an evolving system. And for that, they do a creditable job.

At the same time, remember how many format changes you have experienced in the past, how many we will encounter in the future. Next year's best DAC will be better than last year's best DAC. And that will be true for all DACS for the foreseeable future. No reason to expect that a Legacy Brand in an upscale case will be SOTA in 3 years.

Last I looked , Moore's Law was still in effect.

 

[raistlin65]

At the same time, remember how many format changes you have experienced in the past, how many we will encounter in the future. Next year's best DAC will be better than last year's best DAC. And that will be true for all DACS for the foreseeable future. No reason to expect that a Legacy Brand in an upscale case will be SOTA in 3 years.

Last I looked , Moore's Law was still in effect.

Good point.
How much did it cost to get Topping E30 or JDS Labs Atom DAC performance 3 years ago? And then think about Atom and Heresy amp equivalents 3 years ago?

Consider the Apple dongle and HIDISZ S8 performance.

How long before we see $50 amp/DAC combos with twice the voltage capability of the HIDIZS S8 that measure well? 3 years?

 

[jhwalker]

I think it‘s funny that people feel that audiophile-dom is somehow divorced from consumer behaviour generally. There are tonnes of examples of situations where people buy things that are completely unnecessary in any practical sense, but that they feel that the product defines them as who they are. What car you drive, what clothes and watch you wear and where you live are often driven far more by the desire to make an external statement rather than the tangible aspects of those items. It doesn’t matter one whit that a McIntosh amp sounds no better (or perhaps worse) than one that is a fraction of the cost. The point is that you own one and that makes you special (at least in your own mind!).

I have to say, I've never understood this idea of possessions "defining" who you are. I've seen (and participated in) many consumer surveys, and they always ask you to rate some variation of "Product X aligns with my sense of who I am" or "Product Y makes me feel proud to own it" or whatever. I didn't even "get" the question - always answered "N/A".

I buy autos for reliability and cost of ownership, not "lifestyle". I buy my clothes from Target or Walmart because they're cheap and long-wearing, not an "investment". I don't wear a watch (and would certainly never buy an expensive one) because I have one in my phone. I buy Apple computers because I like macOS and iPhones because I like iOS. Etc.

Same goes for audio equipment - I buy the products I buy because they have features I want. What they look like or what kind of "casework" they have, etc., is completely irrelevant. I don't get "pride of ownership".

There, I've said it. LOL.

 

[jhwalker]

Let's not play pedantics. I was using inter connected mail, bulletin boards and modem coupled communication in the late 1980s too. It was not the internet as most people understand it. Computers were the province of geeks in the consumer space and professionals in the business/research space. They were primitive and the first real operating system to make connecting to the internet easy was Windows 95. Prior to that, it was difficult for all but a seasoned computer nerd to get a communications stack, serial ports and slow hardware modems doing anything other than 9,600 if you were really lucky. Do you remember how much fun it was getting Windows for Workgroups (3.11) to work with a standalone modem, winsock and get any form of reliable communication via copper twisted pair telephone lines?

People were not flocking to the "internet" in vast droves until the mid to late 1990s. Most businesses didn't even have an internet presence and as for distribution of anything except grainy images and small files, it was still a plaything for people who didn't mind paying for multiple call dropouts and long waits for anything to happen.

In 1987-91, I was selling computers (among other things). 2400 baud modems were still around. 9600 baud was new. There was no internet as consumers know it as there were no internet service providers until well into 1990. Basically, by 1991, you could get email, that was it. It was a plaything and very cool. There were still bulletin boards (BBS), usenet in big institutions and access to some company servers with dedicated software and suitable servers.

In 1993, I was hired in the IT department of a nationally-known real estate firm here in Dallas. One of my first assignments was to research the Internet to determine if it was really a "thing" and if there were any viable business purpose to invest in it.

 

[Jimbob54]

In 1993, I was hired in the IT department of a nationally-known real estate firm here in Dallas. One of my first assignments was to research the Internet to determine if it was really a "thing" and if there were any viable business purpose to invest in it.

You said "no", didn't you?

 

[restorer-john]

In 1993, I was hired in the IT department of a nationally-known real estate firm here in Dallas. One of my first assignments was to research the Internet to determine if it was really a "thing" and if there were any viable business purpose to invest in it.

He registered realestate.com, played with the concept for a while, but the powers that be, let the domain name lapse because they saw no future in it.