If DAC's like Topping D10 measure so well, what do the better DACs offer?

[Trdat]

I wasn't sure where to pop this under but I thought it has to be related to the science of how we hear. Because the audibility differences of the top tier DACs must be inaudible or at least minimal and understanding them is Psychoacoustics.

If a DAC like Topping D10 produces a high Sinad figure and all A grades on the other measurement tests then what to the more expensive DACs offer in terms of sound quality that this little DAC does not have.

I mean, is it just features, volume control and more Vrms power?

Of course I don't want to get into the subjective, objective debate just a scientific answer on what a really expensive DAC offers if its measurements are slightly better or even better than something like a Topping D10?

 

[bogart]

There’s also casework and local dealer representation to pay for in some instances.

Features tend to drive differentials within the price tiers, but brand (which then dictates the level of casework usually) will drive far more of the price difference.

 

[Sukie]

Of course I don't want to get into the subjective, objective debate just a scientific answer on what a really expensive DAC offers if its measurements are slightly better or even better than something like a Topping D10?

Psychology (which is a science) helps us understand the added value of an expensive DAC. Yes, you're likely to get a well engineered product, but you're also getting a brand identity feel-good factor. Now that doesn't excite me (proud owner of Topping D50s and D10s), but it does excite others and good luck to them.

Science can help us understand the audio properties of the equipment that we look at (measurements), but it can also help us understand the added value appeal of luxury items. It's just that we need to realise that the added value has nothing to do with audio quality (sorry, straying into the objective/subjective thing - slap to the wrist administered!).

 

[Jimbob54]

I wasn't sure where to pop this under but I thought it has to be related to the science of how we hear. Because the audibility differences of the top tier DACs must be inaudible or at least minimal and understanding them is Psychoacoustics.

If a DAC like Topping D10 produces a high Sinad figure and all A grades on the other measurement tests then what to the more expensive DACs offer in terms of sound quality that this little DAC does not have.

I mean, is it just features, volume control and more Vrms power?

Of course I don't want to get into the subjective, objective debate just a scientific answer on what a really expensive DAC offers if its measurements are slightly better or even better than something like a Topping D10?

What do a $300 pair of sneakers have over a $40 pair. I guarantee its not the speed at which the wearer can run.

So why assume there must be a difference in SQ between cheap DAC and expensive DAC?

 

[MZKM]

• Balanced connections / more output voltage.
• Better case design/construction.
• More connections (say wireless/Bluetooth).
• Tighter QC.
• etc.

 

[Taddpole]

What do a $300 pair of sneakers have over a $40 pair. I guarantee its not the speed at which the wearer can run.

So why assume there must be a difference in SQ between cheap DAC and expensive DAC?

Well you say that...

https://www.businessinsider.com/nik...ban-but-prototypes-regulated-2020-1?r=US&IR=T

 

[Racheski]

What do a $300 pair of sneakers have over a $40 pair. I guarantee its not the speed at which the wearer can run.

So why assume there must be a difference in SQ between cheap DAC and expensive DAC?

Tell that to Eliud Kipchoge!
https://sneakernews.com/2020/09/02/eliud-kipchoge-nike-zoom-alphafly-next/

 

[Berwhale]

what to the more expensive DACs offer in terms of sound quality that this little DAC does not have

Nothing audible (in a level matched, double blind trial). I bought a D50s over a D10 purely on looks and functionality, I knew it wouldn't sound any different to a D10.

 

[Jimbob54]

Tell that to Eliud Kipchoge!
https://sneakernews.com/2020/09/02/eliud-kipchoge-nike-zoom-alphafly-next/

I will rephrase- at the bleeding edge of running, of course every gramme of weight, every tiny bit of energy conserved counts.

For fat lazy bastards like me, the difference in trainers will make zero difference. Even with those bad boys.

 

[JeffS7444]

I mean, is it just features, volume control and more Vrms power?

Features, form-factors, novelty: Yup, that's pretty much it. But features can be a pretty big deal if you want to use your DAC as a digital preamplifier or want to be able to plug headphones into it.

 

[Berwhale]

It's also worth reading this if you haven't found it already... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

 

[Vini darko]

There's also manufacture support and location. McIntosh may seem like a rip-off but in 30 years they will still service and repair your dac.

 

[Daverz]

Archimago writes a bit about this topic in his latest post:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/08/summer-musings-modern-tech-life.html

 

[jhaider]

What do a $300 pair of sneakers have over a $40 pair. I guarantee its not the speed at which the wearer can run.

Unlike a DAC of adequate specification with no meaningful processing (e.g. room correction, bass management, PEQ), a sneaker can affect performance. Obviously that varies by runner. My wife, a marathoner, bought a pair of the Nike shoes linked by others above during her training for the 2019 NYC marathon, and did not prefer them or wear them in the race.

That said, most $300 sneakers are fashion items, not technical products. And for $40 you're going to get something that's either all petrochemical or with a rat-skin upper!

 

[GDK]

I think it‘s funny that people feel that audiophile-dom is somehow divorced from consumer behaviour generally. There are tonnes of examples of situations where people buy things that are completely unnecessary in any practical sense, but that they feel that the product defines them as who they are. What car you drive, what clothes and watch you wear and where you live are often driven far more by the desire to make an external statement rather than the tangible aspects of those items. It doesn’t matter one whit that a McIntosh amp sounds no better (or perhaps worse) than one that is a fraction of the cost. The point is that you own one and that makes you special (at least in your own mind!).

 

[Jimbob54]

Unlike a DAC of adequate specification with no meaningful processing (e.g. room correction, bass management, PEQ), a sneaker can affect performance. Obviously that varies by runner. My wife, a marathoner, bought a pair of the Nike shoes linked by others above during her training for the 2019 NYC marathon, and did not prefer them or wear them in the race.

That said, most $300 sneakers are fashion items, not technical products. And for $40 you're going to get something that's either all petrochemical or with a rat-skin upper!

Yup ;-) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...at-do-the-better-dacs-offer.15792/post-505465

 

[Rja4000]

Balanced output,
Good headphones amp,
Flexible EQ,
Bass + Trebble,
Loudness-related compensation curve,
Choice of output ranges,
Beautiful (and useful) display,
Brand prestige,
Higher confidence in device Reliability,
User-error-resistance (efficient protections),
Frequent firmware improvement,
...

Pick your choice(s)...

Performance-wise:
Wider tolerance for amp sensitivity, power supply, digital input signal quality

Audio-wise:
For me, the EQ, itself, justifies the cost different. It definitely improves the sound quality / listening pleasure

 

[restorer-john]

It's a cheap Chinese D/A converter that performs well enough - for now.

If you are a compulsive hobbyist, upgrader, cable tweaking fiddler, those PCB mount RCAs will crack off the PCB in no time. The cheap Toslink receiver plastic molding will get worn and the optical cable will fall out. The PCB mount USB jack is probably as cheap as it gets and dry joints will be your enemy.

It's so small and lightweight you will have to stick it to the desk/rack with double sided tape so the weight of the attached cables don't pull it onto the floor and cause the problems I described above.

So, while these inexpensive things may test well for the limited functions they do, they are hardly something you want to take on a multi decade audiophile journey. They offer zero pride of ownership. They are the Timex or Casio of HiFi. Enjoy them for what they are, but don't for one second think they are anything more than a temporary part of an evolving system. And for that, they do a creditable job.

 

[Sukie]

It's a cheap Chinese D/A converter that performs well enough - for now.

If you are a compulsive hobbyist, upgrader, cable tweaking fiddler, those PCB mount RCAs will crack off the PCB in no time. The cheap Toslink receiver plastic molding will get worn and the optical cable will fall out. The PCB mount USB jack is probably as cheap as it gets and dry joints will be your enemy..

Interesting points on longevity. If you're a "set up and leave it" sort of person, rather than a compulsive hobbyist, do you think that there's still a limited longevity on the cheaper products? I know this is a "how long is a piece of string" question in many ways. Most people on here have only had the cheaper products for a short period of time, myself included.

 

[restorer-john]

do you think that there's still a limited longevity on the cheaper products?

Yes. But for people that just set, forget and enjoy, they will get great value. 10 years later they will still be going strong and for the price, that's great.

For young people, 10 years is a very long time, for others further along their HiFi journey, it's nothing. I have a 30 year old D/A converter here that weighs 12.5kg, has three toroidal transformers in it, each one bigger than that little Topping, and is built no expense spared. It still performs as well as the day it was made. But does it do USB? Nope. USB didn't exist. Neither did the internet. But a cheap USB to coaxial/optical bridge brings it bang up to date if I want that.

Other standalone D/As may outperform it in my collection, but they are plastic things I have little interest in.