• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

If CDs are obsolete, why old CD players are still expensive?

CDs?

Turntables?

If you ladies want reel pain, you need to look at reel to reel prices.

The price of some of my decks are up 300% in the last 3 years.

I have an old Pioneer deck (RT-707), got rid of my good decks long, long ago. I tried to sell it a few years ago, no takers (too low-end). I was surprised at the prices of pre-recorded tapes, however; as much as $750 for some new releases and around $250~$350 for most. A "lo-fi" 7" was still around $100. I have not looked since to see if the prices have moderated.

+1

CD is just a digital file storage medium.

LP is a music reproduction medium.

I completely disagree with such an opinion, at least that the implication CDs cannot contain music, natch, but will just say LP and tape are analog storage mediums whilst CD is a digital storage medium.

Interestingly enough there were some LPs made to store telemetry and other "digital" data once upon a time. Tape was overwhelming favored, however.

It does remind me of the on-going photo debate about digital vs. film though film proponents are harder to find these days (but very vocal).
 
It does remind me of the on-going photo debate about digital vs. film though film proponents are harder to find these days (but very vocal).
(Sorry for derailing) Yeah, they are vocal. I think one of the only piece of analog gear that still truly has objective, measurable superior qualities are CRT monitors. They are completely outclassed in terms of color by modern displays, as would any LCD from a CRTs time be. But, CRTs still have much better motion clarity than any flat panel display on the consumer market. Only certain strobbing OLEDs can truly come close.
 
These are two players that I have and consider pretty good, each in their own way. Still available at a reasonable cost.
  • Sony UBP-X800: a universal player with support for CD, SACD, DVD-Audio, BluRay Audio. No analog output, but sends DSD bitstream over HDMI if the AVR supports it. For 2 channel setups, optical output has to suffice. Available new ($300 at Amazon) and used, a little cheaper.
  • Sony BDP S590: supports CD, SACD, BluRay Audio. Great as a SACD Ripping Machine :). In addition to HDMI and optical, has analog output. Available used on eBay for $30 - $40.
Actually, a refreshed new UBP-X800M2, with support for HDR10, is available for ~ $200. Audio features identical with UBP-X800.
 
I have an old Pioneer deck (RT-707), got rid of my good decks long, long ago. I tried to sell it a few years ago, no takers (too low-end). I was surprised at the prices of pre-recorded tapes, however; as much as $750 for some new releases and around $250~$350 for most. A "lo-fi" 7" was still around $100. I have not looked since to see if the prices have moderated.


https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=pioneer+RT-707

As high as $1000, depending on condition.

And that's for a 4-track deck that maxes out at 7.5 IPS.

As for pre-recorded tapes, $450 each is the rate that Analogue Productions and The Tape Project are charging.


Interestingly enough there were some LPs made to store telemetry and other "digital" data once upon a time. Tape was overwhelming favored, however.

It does remind me of the on-going photo debate about digital vs. film though film proponents are harder to find these days (but very vocal).

In analog world, I don't think it's possible to divorce the data from the medium itself, because all analog mediums introduce distortions of various kinds.

Reel to reel tape, for example, still has tape compression, w&f and head bump no matter what you do. Yeah, you can make it better or worse, but it never goes away.

Digital, on the other hand: if the checksum is the same, the data is the same.
 
Actually, a refreshed new UBP-X800M2, with support for HDR10, is available for ~ $200. Audio features identical with UBP-X800.
UHP-H1 is the same but with analog out..
 
I pick them up at thrift shops when looking for CD's.... usually ~$10 without remote and $15 to $20 with remote. I always make sure they have digital out in case I want to use an external DAC but I have found the built in DAC is usually fine. Still looking for one that can play SACD's ....

Your best bet is a Sony BluRay player for SACD. If you want multichannel (which to me is the primary advantage of SACD) you'll need an AV receiver with HDMI. The biggest problem is that most have only minimal front displays. I did find that the Sony BDP-BX37 does have a track and time display.
 
CD's are never going to be old news in my book.. physically owning music is just too enjoyable for me. The ritual of walking over to my SA(CD) player and opening the silent tray and hitting play is part of the experience of listening sometimes. As to why some are so expensive.... mostly build quality, and such... some of them, like mine, have custom (in house) made transport / drive mechanisms, while most others will come with either one of the major OEM drives such as a Denon/Marantz.

Matter of fact I just picked up a couple of limited edition "direct from the Master" 24K Gold CD recordings from ebay at a good price...
 

Attachments

  • s-l500.jpg
    s-l500.jpg
    29.3 KB · Views: 204
  • s-l500-1.jpg
    s-l500-1.jpg
    23.1 KB · Views: 179
These are two players that I have and consider pretty good, each in their own way. Still available at a reasonable cost.
[*]Sony BDP S590: supports CD, SACD, BluRay Audio. Great as a SACD Ripping Machine :). In addition to HDMI and optical, has analog output. Available used on eBay for $30 - $40.
[/LIST]
I thought you could not Rip SACDs how do you do that?
 
I thought you could not Rip SACDs how do you do that?

Ripping SACD became possible a few years ago. It doesn't involve breaking the copy protection, which is still unbroken. The way it works is that certain multi format disc players from Sony, Oppo, Pioneer (maybe others, not sure) support not just Blu-ray, DVD and CD but also SACD, and because they are networked players they make those decoded streams available over their network connections so that you can stream your content (i.e. to other DLNA/UPnP renderers on your LAN). So clever people noticed that these players combined SACD decoding with the theoretical possibility of sending those decrypted lossless digital SACD streams to other devices, and they devised some neat tricks to enable this. It really works! Essentially it's as easy as attaching a suitably formatted USB drive to the USB port of the disc player and loading the disc. So far as I can tell the executables on the USB drive prompt the player, when a disc is inserted, to execute code stored on the USB drive instead of code stored on the player. The original hardware still decrypts the SACD stream but now allows it to be accessed via a regular http server. Using a tool such as https://github.com/setmind/sacd-ripper lets you extract either the 2 channel SACD or the 5 channel surround track as you like, either to dsf or dsdiff or into an iso, and then you can use dsf2flac to render the tracks into flac files if preferred. It actually works really nicely and is preferable in many ways to extracting CD audio because SACD, unlike red book CD, uses a proper filesystem with checksums and you can guarantee that you know if you extracted the data properly without having to rely on external tools like accuraterip or worrying if your drive caches data etc. etc.
 
Ripping SACD became possible a few years ago. It doesn't involve breaking the copy protection, which is still unbroken. The way it works is that certain multi format disc players from Sony, Oppo, Pioneer (maybe others, not sure) support not just Blu-ray, DVD and CD but also SACD, and because they are networked players they make those decoded streams available over their network connections so that you can stream your content (i.e. to other DLNA/UPnP renderers on your LAN). So clever people noticed that these players combined SACD decoding with the theoretical possibility of sending those decrypted lossless digital SACD streams to other devices, and they devised some neat tricks to enable this. It really works! Essentially it's as easy as attaching a suitably formatted USB drive to the USB port of the disc player and loading the disc. So far as I can tell the executables on the USB drive prompt the player, when a disc is inserted, to execute code stored on the USB drive instead of code stored on the player. The original hardware still decrypts the SACD stream but now allows it to be accessed via a regular http server. Using a tool such as https://github.com/setmind/sacd-ripper lets you extract either the 2 channel SACD or the 5 channel surround track as you like, either to dsf or dsdiff or into an iso, and then you can use dsf2flac to render the tracks into flac files if preferred. It actually works really nicely and is preferable in many ways to extracting CD audio because SACD, unlike red book CD, uses a proper filesystem with checksums and you can guarantee that you know if you extracted the data properly without having to rely on external tools like accuraterip or worrying if your drive caches data etc. etc.

Ok so what software do I copy to my USB drive to download the SACD?
 
Start at https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/28569-sacd-ripping-using-an-oppo-or-pioneer-yes-its-true/

It's an enormous and disorganised thread so something of a nightmare, and unfortunately some of the important posts are made by people with the severest verbal diahhorea and scant ability to organise their output for consumption by others. I use two players capable of ripping SACD, both are Sony models, the BDP-S390 & BDP-S490. If you have one of these, or another Sony player in the same series, then pm me and I can post you a link to my working USB disk image which you can write to a USB drive.
 
Those cheap Sony are good, unfortunately is hard to find one with a good working drive.
I have a S470 but it only works as a network player, cd drive has long gone.
 
Don't think cd's are obsoliet lots of early cd's from the 80 an 90ties are made of mastertapes who where at the time in a much better condition than todays MQA files that are made of the same mastertapes which suffer from lots of transient loss. If i can find a preferd Cd from the 80 or 90ties i buy it an ripp it immediately
 
Not true. The compact disc format was envisaged by the inventors to have an approximate 25 year life before it was succeeded by solid state memory.

He mentioned each format has a 25 year lifecycle.. :eek: we will have to endure MQA for at least 20 more years.
 
Don't think cd's are obsoliet lots of early cd's from the 80 an 90ties are made of mastertapes who where at the time in a much better condition than todays MQA files that are made of the same mastertapes which suffer from lots of transient loss. If i can find a preferd Cd from the 80 or 90ties i buy it an ripp it immediately

Is there any evidence that for MQA they actually go back to the master tapes and "remaster" the music for MQA or do they just run what ever mastering they all ready have through the magic MQA process? I am going to speculate that mostly "reprocess" with a few "remasters" of famous titles.

I agree on the older CD's .... prices are low and the quality can be excellent. My local Goodwill was selling CD's for $0.79 this weekend... they had about 400 titles... lots of junk of course but lots of good titles many of which I all ready had but still found 5.
 
https://consequenceofsound.net/2020/09/vinyl-sales-surpass-cds-34-years/

I think an hope physical media as a mainstream item is obsolete.
Soundcloud, bandcamp, youtube... and so on liberating the industry.
There is more independently produced content produced, available, consumed then ever. Most of "digital only".

So the physical media market becoming a niche market and is spited between vinyl, castes, and CD.
Since vinyl, castes, often include a digital license there is no Objective reason for CD.

Obviously all of this makes prices go up not down. Economy of scale and so on
 
Has anyone seen measurements of old CD players? Including cheap consumer ones?

I'm curious, because back in the 80s I really hated the way CDs sounded. And now I have gigabytes of CD-quality recordings that sound great, including ones that were recorded back then. So my original assumption—that that they didn't know how to record digitally back then—is debunked.

Now I'm thinking that either 1) the players back then were lousy, or 2) things sounded fine and I was just brainwashed.

It's also possible that I made up my mind based on some not-great recordings. Some of my CDs from back then are indeed too bright and thin (The Police, Joni Mitchell, Blondie ...)
 
Not mentioned in this thread that I saw: Owning physical media gives the owner unlimited license to listen to the music, for as long as the playback capability can be sustained. I don't have to have a subscription or an account with anyone to listen to CD's and vinyl records in my collection.

CD players are as good as any current playback technology in audio performance, so the usual anti-vinyl arguments don't apply. Not that it's as important to most of us as we pretend. I can sit down and listen to a scratchy old LP through which the crappy record players of my youth have plowed furrows, and still enjoy the music. With CD's, I enjoy them every bit as much as I would enjoy any digital storage and playback technology, even when paying attention to technical quality.

I have many of my CD's ripped and stored on a computer, and it's convenient in some ways. But when I sit down to listen to my main system, I usually fetch an actual CD or LP and put it in an actual player, as part of listening intentionally instead of just playing background music.

Now, to the sustainability of the technology. All machines are subject to wear, and there is much said about the failure of CD drive mechanisms. But in my experience, the laser assembly not usually a problem for long-term sustainability--all the old players I have bought were rejected for other reasons and the lasers are fine. The problem for me has been the loading mechanisms. Those often use chains of plastic parts, gears, and belts, and are often simply too complicated and overdesigned. For example, I have an otherwise very nice Denon DCD-1560 CD player that simply will not open and close the drawer reliably. It uses the elasticity of a thick and heavy belt to lock and unlock the drawer, and the drawer motor doesn't have the power to overcome that belt as it tried to reliably swing one pulley around the latch. That one is still on my long-term fix-it pile.

I have two Tascam CD-401 players. One of them required supergluing a plastic assembly back down to the bed on which it sits, and I also needed to resolder an RCA socket. Now it is reliable. Both needed belts (a five-minute change with those decks). As far the rest of the transport goes, it's the excellent Sony KSS-151 laser assembly (like the Denon) and they were Sony's premium mech at the time. They use linear motors to track the laser--silent and fast. I've never had one fail. I have a Magnavox CDB-650, which is nearly legendary at this point with its Philips transport and DAC. It needs a belt, but the electronics work perfectly. I have a Cambridge Audio D500SE from the late 90's that uses a Sony KSS-213 laser and after installing a fresh belt it works perfectly. The Cambridge Audio CXC is relatively recent, and it has the only currently available drive mech for these sorts of players, which is a Sanyo. Cheap--not on the same build-quality planet as the old Sony or Philips stuff, but still serviceable and for the moment sustainable. And my standard main-system player is a Naim CD5, with a Philips mech and a manual drawer that means there are no belts at all. I've paid as little as $25 (for the Tascam that needed Superglue) to as much as 30 times that (for the Naim in restored condition). They all sound great.

(Most CD players these days are computer-grade DVD/CD drives, which are designed for intermittent very high-speed data transfer loaded down with a range of error-correcting protocols, rather than being designed for high duty-cycle real-time data transfer with minimal dependence on read-back error correction. The older ones are simply made better, to higher price points. it's worth keeping the best of the old ones running, just as with most things.)

I suspect that as internet-based rent-seeking services get even greedier, or service providers (with the loss of net neutrality) start charging extra monthly fees for accessing streaming services (audio and video), or as the streamers require us to endure advertising, or after one of their databases gets publicly hacked, or when people start being judged in the workplace or the court of public opinion about their music and video choices, people will tire of having their entire world delivered to them through that leaky pipe. I predict that owning stuff will make a comeback, or at least it will be missed by those who presently eschew it.

The only question is whether anybody will remember how to make the stuff, let alone repair it.

Finally, there is a question of curation. My CD/record collection is small by the standards of many here, but it is carefully selected. There's very little in my CD cabinet that doesn't represent something special or unusually interesting, even if it's just the best example of recording and performing a particular piece of music, or an earlier version. As I have been ripping my CD's, I have not been tempted to skip more than a couple of them as being redundant. Yes, that includes all five versions that I have of the Shostakovich 5th Symphony, or the four versions I have of the startling Vaughan Williams 4th Symphony. If I search on "Shostakovich 5th" in an online service, maybe a version that I like will be there. Maybe not. Qobuz doesn't have any of the versions of Shostakovich that I have, and Tidal, near as I can tell, doesn't even let me look at their database without signing up. Even if I never buy another CD, I have a well-curated sampling of all kinds of music that has already stood the test of time with me. Nevertheless, I am still buying CD's of recordings made within the last year, and those will be part of my well-curated collection 20 years from now.

Rick "who would probably go to a streaming service if the house burned down and had to start all over, but would still be scouring ebay and bargain bins for treasured old stuff" Denney
 
Back
Top Bottom