IEM Cables. Please do not laugh, cos I sincerely hear a difference, contrary to expectations. Wish to explore WHY?

[Miguelón]

Hang on . Your original position was that...

In my studio monitors setup, connecting my WiiM Ultra to Genelec G Three monitors by RCA to RCA sounds different (“thinner” if this adjective make sense) than RCA to XLR (more “rounded”, again excuse for the adjective),

Why are we now talking about putting 2 different speakers in a pair and not getting good stereo .

As regards this thread , what is your position please ?

This is a thread about iem cables and it now seems we are into speaker comparisons ? Start a new thread please .

Yes, excuse me, I derived to another subject.

My position is that balanced cables are audible different than unbalanced ones: not night and day but at least in my ancient setup was there.

 

[antcollinet]

Yes, excuse me, I derived to another subject.

My position is that balanced cables are audible different than unbalanced ones: not night and day but at least in my ancient setup was there.

If there is no noise. Then no, they are not. At least not coming from the cables. If your gear has a problem with one or other of the inputs, that is a different matter - but that should - as pointed out by @Jimbob54 - be discussed elsewhere.

 

[Miguelón]

If there is no noise. Then no, they are not. At least not coming from the cables. If your gear has a problem with one or other of the inputs, that is a different matter - but that should - as pointed out by @Jimbob54 - be discussed elsewhere.

Ok, surely you’re right: I will open a thread to debate the origin of real or imaginary perception of harmonics in different devices.

First let me document a little bit, I find the subject quite interesting, probably more on the psychoacoustic side. Noise has a measured threshold, I guess harmonics behave differently on human hearing.

Excuse me @Jimbob54, this is my latest post branching the subject.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

My electric network is not grounded, we made a complaint to the owner to change installation, so maybe justifies some audible differences.

The reason I believe is not necessary is because if a DAC is well done both unbalanced and balanced SINAD are under human threshold.

"Well done" is doing some heavy listing there.
Even well done, a single-ended line level connection such as the typical RCAs can still have mutual noise/distortion when connected to a separately powered device.

There is a reason why balanced differential signal connections were invented (XLR, TRS), and it wasn't just all snake-oil.

 

[antcollinet]

"Well done" is doing some heavy listing there.
Even well done, a single-ended line level connection such as the typical RCAs can still have mutual noise/distortion when connected to a separately powered device.

There is a reason why balanced differential signal connections were invented (XLR, TRS), and it wasn't just all snake-oil.

This is true.

But I think it is important to point out it is not the cable (the topic of this thread) that is bringing this benefit. It is the differential signalling.

You can have an unbalanced cable and balanced cable of identical construction (wire material & thickness, insulation and shield construction) apart from the additional conductor for the balanced connection - and still get the full benefit of a balanced connection. You can have a significantly poorer quality balanced cable compared to the unbalanced one - and still get dramatically improved noise rejection. In fact in most cases you could have a completely unscreened balanced connection and still get better noise rejection than an unbalanced connection with the best screening imaginable.

 

[Miguelón]

"Well done" is doing some heavy listing there.
Even well done, a single-ended line level connection such as the typical RCAs can still have mutual noise/distortion when connected to a separately powered device.

There is a reason why balanced differential signal connections were invented (XLR, TRS), and it wasn't just all snake-oil.

I know, the debate were if they are an audible difference in the context of no interferences/ loops added to the signal…

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

This is true.

But I think it is important to point out it is not the cable (the topic of this thread) that is bringing this benefit. It is the differential signalling.

You can have an unbalanced cable and balanced cable of identical construction (wire material & thickness, insulation and shield construction) apart from the additional conductor for the balanced connection - and still get the full benefit of a balanced connection. You can have a significantly poorer quality balanced cable compared to the unbalanced one - and still get dramatically improved noise rejection. In fact in most cases you could have a completely unscreened balanced connection and still get better noise rejection than an unbalanced connection with the best screening imaginable.

That's a good point.

Thou one can have two-wire balanced differential signalling.
It's just not used in audio.

 

[antcollinet]

Thou one can have two-wire balanced differential signalling.

Also true. Ethernet being a case in point.

But then you typically need galvanic isolation (such as the transformers used for ethernet), or simple transducers such as unpowered mics, to avoid the common mode problem. It tends to work better for data connections. Or in cases where common mode voltage differential is controlled in another way than a cable ground reference.

 

[LtMandella]

[[Marketing]]
hmm, Amir's reason' de tere is measurements of distortion and sinaid. Seems to me almost every device that Amir has tested that supports balanced topology produces lower distortion and better sinaid from balanced.
Am I wrong about that?

 

[antcollinet]

[[Marketing]]
hmm, Amir's reason' de tere is measurements of distortion and sinaid. Seems to me almost every device that Amir has tested that supports balanced topology produces lower distortion and better sinaid from balanced.
Am I wrong about that?

No not wrong. Generally balanced connections have slightly better SINAD/lower distortion. But that is normally only because balanced connections have higher (typically double) the voltage. So the ratio between noise and signal is around 6dB better. This does not apply to headphone cables - since for the same volume, the voltage must be the same.

Audiblity is also a question. The difference will normally be inaudible - except in the presence of audible ground/common mode noise - which will be mostly rejected by the balanced connection. This does not apply to headphone cables, since they cannot carry ground noise currents.

 

[VientoB]

[[Marketing]]
hmm, Amir's reason' de tere is measurements of distortion and sinaid. Seems to me almost every device that Amir has tested that supports balanced topology produces lower distortion and better sinaid from balanced.
Am I wrong about that?

If you look at his measurement reviews SINAD is only one thing of many he looks at. It's a bogus claim that he only looks at SINAD.

 

[LtMandella]

No not wrong. Generally balanced connections have slightly better SINAD/lower distortion. But that is normally only because balanced connections have higher (typically double) the voltage. So the ration between noise and signal is around 6dB better. This does not apply to headphone cables - since for the same volume, the voltage must be the same.

Audiblity is also a question. The difference will normally be inaudible - except in the presence of audible ground/common mode noise - which will be mostly rejected by the balanced connection. This does not apply to headphone cables, since they cannot carry ground noise currents.

Also I was under the impression that longer running (> 1 meter) single ended cables will suffer from greater signal loss at higher frequencies (within audible ranges), skewing the response. Are you thinking this would be inaudible?

 

[unpluggged]

Also I was under the impression that longer running (> 1 meter) single ended cables will suffer from greater signal loss at higher frequencies (within audible ranges), skewing the response.

Not at such short lengths and not at such low frequencies.

 

[LtMandella]

Not at such short lengths and not at such low frequencies.

got it. thank you!

 

[livinon2wheels]

I have successfully run 25 foot rca type cables with no audible degradation to the signal, this only works well when everything in the system is in good condition. It doesn't take much for such a setup to show its weaknesses, a little oxidation on the ground connectors or an iffy ground connection in one of the connected pieces is all it takes to make for a ground loop problem. Once had a situation where my cable tv service was at a different ground potential than the hi-fi equipment and necessitated using an isolation transformer on the cable connection to fix it. The hum that generated made running tv audio thru the sound system impossible. That one took a while to figure out...

 

[LtMandella]

I have successfully run 25 foot rca type cables with no audible degradation to the signal, this only works well when everything in the system is in good condition. It doesn't take much for such a setup to show its weaknesses, a little oxidation on the ground connectors or an iffy ground connection in one of the connected pieces is all it takes to make for a ground loop problem. Once had a situation where my cable tv service was at a different ground potential than the hi-fi equipment and necessitated using an isolation transformer on the cable connection to fix it. The hum that generated made running tv audio thru the sound system impossible. That one took a while to figure out...

I had a similar hum problem one time, traced to a high quality network cable. Switched to a lower quality cable (no grounding shield I presume) and hum disappeared. But then again, I have said for a long time that any personal anecdotal claims of audibility - or lack thereof - of distortion etc. must be considered in the light of variability of hearing in all of us. Especially for the higher frequencies...

 

[antcollinet]

no grounding shield I presume

Yes, disconnecting the ground can make a hell of a difference to a ground loop . And ethernet - being transformer coupled, generally doesn't need it

Makes unshielded (UTP) normally the best cable to use - at least in domestic installations.

 

[gaz]

I have Koss headphones which have a short cable to a connector, then another cable ending with a 3.5 mm plug.

A couple of times I had a strange effect where the vocals on one channel were strongly affected - I forget the details. It persisted until I twisted or reconnected the intermediate connection!

With anything other than gold plated connections, surface layer resistances can become significant, especially with small voltages. When I test 1.5 V batteries, I always dry wipe all contacts - the problem is sometimes just a surface layer, and the battery is fine.

Gold is wonderful, it does not form a surface oxide. (Even platinum does.) I'm always pleased to find gold plated connectors.