IEM Cables. Please do not laugh, cos I sincerely hear a difference, contrary to expectations. Wish to explore WHY?

[ahofer]

This calls for some scientific investigation with controlled tests.

Somebody should get on that.

 

[Miguelón]

This calls for some scientific investigation with controlled tests.

Somebody should get on that.

I don’t think it can be an audible difference unless ground loops or EM interferences, such is the reason why they were built (balanced lines, I mean)…

If we have to make blind test for anything, the first should be if a beautifully machined high grade aluminum body can produce better sound than a plastic one on a DAC…

That would explain why people pays thousands of dollars for that

 

[ahofer]

I don’t think it can be an audible difference unless ground loops or EM interferences, such is the reason why they were built (balanced lines, I mean)…

If we have to make blind test for anything, the first should be if a beautifully machined high grade aluminum body can produce better sound than a plastic one on a DAC…

That would explain why people pays thousands of dollars for that

I don’t need a blind test. It just seems like the only possible response at this moment.

As a side note, I’ve seen it suggested that people are dumb to believe this stuff without investigation. Unfortunately, I think it’s kind of the opposite. Smart people are awesome at rationalizing what they wanted to believe in the first place.

Process beats brains, at least in my profession.

 

[Miguelón]

I don’t need a blind test. It just seems like the only possible response at this moment.

As a side note, I’ve seen it suggested that people are dumb to believe this stuff without investigation. Unfortunately, I think it’s kind of the opposite. Smart people are awesome at rationalizing what they wanted to believe in the first place.

Process beats brains, at least in my profession.

Well, a test always can be performed, but probably it has be done.

The reason I believe is not necessary is because if a DAC is well done both unbalanced and balanced SINAD are under human threshold.

Is the same question that comes again and again: if one person could distinguish between them by hypothesis, then the instruments too…

 

[livinon2wheels]

In my studio monitors setup, connecting my WiiM Ultra to Genelec G Three monitors by RCA to RCA sounds different (“thinner” if this adjective make sense) than RCA to XLR (more “rounded”, again excuse for the adjective), and what is interesting even more rounded when changing DAC to a balanced one and connecting by TRS to XLR balanced.

RCA connexions tend to have more harmonic distortions, so perhaps the second and third harmonics give thinner shape (as they sound 1 and 3/2 octaves up with respect to the fundamental).

Personally I find XLR balanced closer to the real tonality when listening to piano recordings, “real” because I play the piano since I was 6 years old but recordings have their own harmonics and noise so maybe false…

In general Amir reviews of RCA and XLR outputs of any DAC tend to show better numbers on the latest because higher voltage and better inter-channel coherence, but I don’t know if it’s audible.

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that single ended cables have more distortion than balanced, especially over the typically short runs used in home audio. There are way more variations in the recording quality of the pressings you listen to than imparted by the cables used. But don't let me browbeat you, you should do what works for you.

 

[Miguelón]

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that single ended cables have more distortion than balanced, especially over the typically short runs used in home audio. There are way more variations in the recording quality of the pressings you listen to than imparted by the cables used. But don't let me browbeat you, you should do what works for you.

How long can be cables untill balanced signal worths over the less expensive unbalanced?
In my setup I should place the DAC at one side of the frontal speakers, so at least one of the cables is 3 to 4 meters (10 to 12 feet)

 

[antcollinet]

How long can be cables untill balanced signal worths over the less expensive unbalanced?
In my setup I should place the DAC at one side of the frontal speakers, so at least one of the cables is 3 to 4 meters (10 to 12 feet)

It depends on a lot of things. First is; are there any common mode (ground) currents causing noise in your system.

It will also depend on the screen impedance in the cable, and the impedance of other ground conductors in the system. So it is not really possible to put a figure on it.

If you can try it - and don't hear any noise - then you are good to go.

 

[Miguelón]

It depends on a lot of things. First is; are there any common mode (ground) currents causing noise in your system.

It will also depend on the screen impedance in the cable, and the impedance of other ground conductors in the system. So it is not really possible to put a figure on it.

If you can try it - and don't hear any noise - then you are good to go.

No noise apart from the Genelecs natural one…

I suppose ground loops to be centered on 50 Hz since is the AC frequency here, or this has nothing to do?

 

[Blumlein 88]

How long can be cables untill balanced signal worths over the less expensive unbalanced?
In my setup I should place the DAC at one side of the frontal speakers, so at least one of the cables is 3 to 4 meters (10 to 12 feet)

There is no iron clad answer to that question. Using good coax RCA cables 3-4 meters is usually going to be fine. I've seen them used without issue twice that far. If the amp or active speaker has balanced input I just used balanced. One less thing to think about. Since you have Genelecs I would used balanced unless you have to buy a new source.

 

[Miguelón]

There is no iron clad answer to that question. Using good coax RCA cables 3-4 meters is usually going to be fine. I've seen them used without issue twice that far. If the amp or active speaker has balanced input I just used balanced. One less thing to think about. Since you have Genelecs I would used balanced unless you have to buy a new source.

I’m current using WiiM Ultra as source, I can use only RCA to XLR cables.

I have an audio interface with balanced outputs but it doesn’t sound very well (more noise, some coloration probably due to harmonics by the attenuation knob).

I was informed that Monoprice cables have 2 separate proper wires to benefit from 30dB interference reduction, but they are just 2 m long in Amazon. I cannot find them longer.

 

[antcollinet]

No noise apart from the Genelecs natural one…

I suppose ground loops to be centered on 50 Hz since is the AC frequency here, or this has nothing to do?

Ground loops can carry hum where the noise source is mains interference.

But they can also carry noise from other devices. One frequent example is common mode noise from a PC connected to the DAC. In this case it can be higher frequency squeaks hisses and whistles - often changing as the image on the screen changes, or the mouse is moved. Or when a game is played and the graphics hardware cranks up.

 

[Miguelón]

Ground loops can carry hum where the noise source is mains interference.

But they can also carry noise from other devices. One frequent example is common mode noise from a PC connected to the DAC. In this case it can be higher frequency squeaks hisses and whistles - often changing as the image on the screen changes, or the mouse is moved. Or when a game is played and the graphics hardware cranks up.

Thanks again by your expertise!

I have another doubt, if you’re so gentle to answer.

When I had G Three B and 8030C at home (from Genelec) I realized that sounded quite different when comparing at short term, though I was not concerned once habituated for one or the other.

This morning I have a conversation with Genelec about the topic because in their website the measurements are wrong (they are ancient from 2012 models), so they sent me the new ones (2017) and they confirmed directly that are acoustically identical speakers.

Where do come this initial impression? My guess is just harmonics introduced by the inbuilt attenuator (gain knob in 8030C and fixed -10 dB one in G Three).

Do this make sense? I ensure you that are very different at first impression, not just psychological (my girlfriend prefers G Three, I prefer 8030C).

I’m currently learning some basic concepts about harmonics (I studied at conservatory), so my question is not whether one or another si better, but if harmonics may justify that timber difference but explain equal measurements.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I’m current using WiiM Ultra as source, I can use only RCA to XLR cables.

I have an audio interface with balanced outputs but it doesn’t sound very well (more noise, some coloration probably due to harmonics by the attenuation knob).

I was informed that Monoprice cables have 2 separate proper wires to benefit from 30dB interference reduction, but they are just 2 m long in Amazon. I cannot find them longer.

They have them to 15 and 25 ft on USA Amazon, but maybe not where you are living. Just get a short RCA to XLR and then run the remaining length in an XLR cable. Problem solved. You do need to worry about grounding loops if the active speakers are plugged into different electrical circuits vs the source end. It may result in some 50 hz noise. I'm not knowledgeable regarding how electrical codes and grounding in Spain are done to work around that.

 

[Miguelón]

They have them to 15 and 25 ft on USA Amazon, but maybe not where you are living. Just get a short RCA to XLR and then run the remaining length in an XLR cable. Problem solved. You do need to worry about grounding loops if the active speakers are plugged into different electrical circuits vs the source end. It may result in some 50 hz noise.

Thanks, seems logic the prolongation of XLR to XLR cables!

I was prevented from the different mains issue, so I plugged speakers and source to same power strip

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thanks, seems logic the prolongation of XLR to XLR cables!

I was prevented from the different mains issue, so I plugged speakers and source to same power strip

Good idea, so you probably won't have any problems.

 

[JustJones]

They have RCA to XLR 6 meters at Thomann. They have them in shorter lengths as well.

Cordial EU 6 MC elements

Unbalanced Twin Cable Length: 6 m, 2x XLR 3-pin male to 2x RCA male, Conductor cross-section: 2x 1x 0.14 mm², PVC jacket, 90% coverage, Diameter (W x H): 4 x 8 mm, Colour: Black

www.thomannmusic.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

They have RCA to XLR 6 meters at Thomann. They have them in shorter lengths as well.

Cordial EU 6 MC elements

Unbalanced Twin Cable Length: 6 m, 2x XLR 3-pin male to 2x RCA male, Conductor cross-section: 2x 1x 0.14 mm², PVC jacket, 90% coverage, Diameter (W x H): 4 x 8 mm, Colour: Black

www.thomannmusic.com

I know you are trying to help. However, the diagram of that cable is not at all optimum.

Such a cable is more prone to pick up noise over length. What you want is one that keeps a balanced configuration and only connects 1 and 3 right at the plug on the RCA end. This one looks to be a coax RCA that shorts the pins at the XLR end. I happen to own and know the Monoprice Premium cables are simply their balanced cable and they attach an RCA at one end which is where pins 1 and 3 are connected together. That is another reason I suggest when people need long conversion cables to get a short RCA to XLR cable and make up the distance with an XLR to XLR cable.

 

[antcollinet]

My guess is just harmonics introduced by the inbuilt attenuator (gain knob in 8030C and fixed -10 dB one in G Three).

Not likely. An attenuator knob won't introduce harmonics. By far the most likely reason for you perceiving a difference is (in order of likeliness)

1 - Difference in levels (from having the knob slightly higher or lower than 10dB on the other speaker
2 - Slightly different positioning/toe in of one set of speakers compared to the other, resuming in a different sound field from room interaction and reflections etc.
3 - Perceptive bias - and yes,

I ensure you that are very different at first impression, not just psychological

Perceptive bias can result in very different perceptions - which will also vary from person to person, eg between you and your girlfriend.

4 - Slightly different performance of the two sets of speakers due to age or unit to unit build variations. (Tolerance etc)

 

[Miguelón]

1 - Difference in levels (from having the knob slightly higher or lower than 10dB on the other speaker
2 - Slightly different positioning/toe in of one set of speakers compared to the other, resuming in a different sound field from room interaction and reflections etc.
3 - Perceptive bias - and yes,

Perceptive bias can result in very different perceptions - which will also vary from person to person, eg between you and your girlfriend.

4 - Slightly different performance of the two sets of speakers due to age or unit to unit build variations. (Tolerance etc)

No, is not that: levels were measured with the mic, and the difference in tonality is very easy to distinguish. I mean, is trivial, not those DAC comparisons…

I can’t distinguish at all my two 8030C units, but when we put G Three and 8030C aside was absurd to try a stereo pairing.

Are you sure attenuators are inaudible? I have a monitor controller (not very good one), and if I put them on the chain the difference is noticeable, not bad but as going lower in volume gets more evident. In Thomann website is the major complaint on this components, given that most clients are mixers or editors they should have a good sense of tonality.

 

[Jimbob54]

No, is not that: levels were measured with the mic, and the difference in tonality is very easy to distinguish. I mean, is trivial, not those DAC comparisons…

I can’t distinguish at all my two 8030C units, but when we put G Three and 8030C aside was absurd to try a stereo pairing.

Are you sure attenuators are inaudible? I have a monitor controller (not very good one), and if I put them on the chain the difference is noticeable, not bad but as going lower in volume gets more evident. In Thomann website is the major complaint on this components, given that most clients are mixers or editors they should have a good sense of tonality.

Hang on . Your original position was that...

In my studio monitors setup, connecting my WiiM Ultra to Genelec G Three monitors by RCA to RCA sounds different (“thinner” if this adjective make sense) than RCA to XLR (more “rounded”, again excuse for the adjective),

Why are we now talking about putting 2 different speakers in a pair and not getting good stereo .

As regards this thread , what is your position please ?

This is a thread about iem cables and it now seems we are into speaker comparisons ? Start a new thread please .