IEM Cables. Please do not laugh, cos I sincerely hear a difference, contrary to expectations. Wish to explore WHY?

[solderdude]

Most IEM cables are 4-wire all the way up to the TRS jack where the - are both connected to the sleeve.
The only 3-wire cables are the ones used in single entry headphones.

And yes, certainly with 3-wire and thin wiring the resistance of the return wire is very important. Not only can this affect FR if the impedance is all over the place but also the stereo imaging is affected which can even become audible with certain recordings. Especially with low imp headphones which this one is (16 ohm).

The problems here are 'sighted', not level matched, not instant, different SPL, biased to wanting to hear a difference because of materials and differential vs not SE driving, no statistical amounts of attempts.

If I were OK1 and I would have the experience he had and already own the gear and for some reason would like one combination over the other I would simply use the one that 'sounds best' and not bother further.

I understand he wants an explanation but unfortunately is reluctant to accept the ones that were given as they do not gel with his (and those of others he found).
OK1 would like to receive a technical explanation born from (inaudible) small differences in driving and or 'materials used' but that's not where the explanation is.

Better test methods (no knowledge/hints of what is used) and an exact level match as well as statistical relevant attempts will bring him the desired truth. But as KSTR already touched on... not easy to do properly at all and requires at least one helper that must not give 'clues'.

 

[VientoB]

1. Marketing. "balanced" just sounds better, and is only found in higher end devices, while the ordinary person has never heard about them, i.e. balanced is something you only learn about, with regard to headphones and IEMs, from the "hi-fi"/audiophile community. In professional audio, balanced does mean lower noise in practice for audio cables - but that is a different kind of balanced. So could be the assignation of the good properties of balanced audio cables, from my other life as a semi/pro audio person, from another world where balanced does mean better sound., to the use of balanced cables in headphones/IEMs, where balanced may not exactly mean higher fidelity.

The main reason I used balanced cables for the IEM, was to ensure the DAC would have no issues delivering enough power, to drive the planar magnetic ARTTI T10's. I sincerely did not expect there to be any audible advantage of a balanced cable over an unbalanced cable, or vice versa.

Only advantage to me, was power delivery, being higher in a balanced output, nothing more, which was why the audible difference was a surprise (when adjusted to similar audio levels after each cable swap..

2. Balanced cables typically cost a bit more
3. Devices with balanced headphone outputs also cost more
4. Balanced outputs usually measure better in crosstalk

That's expectation bias not placebo. The look of a cable can have a psychological impact, how much it cost, the fact it's new. Many factors can be at play.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Fully aware of this change in level, and expected this, but also adjusted for this in the playback software, typically lowering the level of playback of balanced by about 9 or 10 dB, in comparison to the level for unbalanced.

Notice I did this by ear.

Initially I assumed the 6dB difference as you have indicated, but discovered while swapping, it was more than 6dB.

My guess here is there was not just a difference between balanced and unbalanced but also an impedance difference and perhaps a capacitance difference between the two cable sets. That could very easily account for the apparent larger than 6 db difference. It could very easily account for the difference in how they affected sound quality

 

[OK1]

My guess here is there was not just a difference between balanced and unbalanced but also an impedance difference and perhaps a capacitance difference between the two cable sets. That could very easily account for the apparent larger than 6 db difference. It could very easily account for the difference in how they affected sound quality

True.

A few years ago, I recall meeting a hi-fi enthusiast at a book store. The vinyl kind, who also was entrenched in a confidence towards large speakers, and it all seemed so daunting, the complexity of matching different devices to achieve a specific sound. And further going on to read about it, online and in hi-fi magazines. + all the myths.

Wish the hi-fi industry could transform to be more like the auto industry. You do not have to own a garage to enjoy the benefit of a high powered or luxurious car. We do not go round checking the horsepower of what we have bought, barring things like dieselgate, there is a fair amount of trust, that what the manufacturer claims is in the tin, is actually there.

So many more people would get into hi-fi, if it were not presented as such a difficult craft, needing advanced electronics knowledge., and you better also have your own multi-meter, and measurement rigs, to check .

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

My setup. Windows laptop via Reaper DAW => WASAPI Exclusive drivers, => USB-C => Tempotec Sonata BHD DAC dongle which has both balanced and unbalanced outputs => ARTTI T10 Planar magnetic IEM's.

I have two cables, both with 0.78 mm pins :

1. Balanced silver coated copper, which was delivered with the T10, with 4 "strands" 4.4mm

2. Single Ended/balanced, copper (not coated), which I bought separately, with 2 "strands" 3.5mm



I have no explanation. None whatsoever. Placebo would have caused me to prefer the balanced cable, but I do not. The unbalanced cable wins in clarity/transparency. It just sounds more accurate.

Will follow up in the next comment

Assuming the effect is real and would be duplicated under rigorous testing ...
My first thought would be the difference is not due to the cables per-say. But rather, either due to a difference in performance between the two output stages, or the simple fact that one is balanced, the other is not.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Zero Phase In Studio Monitors

This Voice Coil’s Spotlight, written by Vance Dickason with commentary from Floyd Toole, Wolfgang Klippel, Andrew Jones, and James Croft, focuses on Zero Phase in Studio Monitors. As Dickason explains, "the implication of using FIR filters to zero out the phase of a loudspeaker to improve its...

audioxpress.com

Dr. Toole on Phase



There are a lot of still unknowns about audio…. But cables are even lower in effect than phase.

Measured differences between interconnect cables

Presented purely for interest. TLDR: 1) Differences in cables exist and can be measured at the audio level and achieve statistically significant differences 2) The differences are vanishingly small, so it doesn't make sense when listening to audio 3) The differences may make a difference when...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Appreciate the links.

 

[OK1]

Just from a physical inspection, the unbalanced cable I was comparing with the balanced cable, does not give me much confidence. Kind of thin. I fully accept that what I heard as a difference could be placebo. Our hearing is not empirical and can be pretty subjective. Whatever the difference if any, I do not think was material.

Going forward, I've decided to acquire sets of modular cables with interchangeable tips, for the IEM's which I use more often. I'll use the same brand/same product, across as many of the IEM's I use a lot. I've also chosen a uniform brand/model/size of eartip, that fits me best.

So going forward I'll use the same output, e.g balanced, or unbalanced for all critical listening comparisons, so the issue of any differences between balanced and unbalanced, if it were to ever exist, due too poor design in my headphone amps, would be taken out of the equation.

Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion. Took a lot of guts for me to post what I know, others would consider as such foolishness. How do we learn if we are not willing to subject ourselves to ridicule?, and also be willing to accomodate ridiculous thinking from others, in a respectful manner.

 

[Jimbob54]

I've also chosen a uniform brand/model/size of eartip, that fits me best.

Just being careful. Some tip /shell/ear combinations work , some don't. I agree same tips for each iem being tested would be good but might still produce dodgy results if it impacts quality of seal or depth of insertion.

I need at least 2 very different types of tip to cover all my iem to ensure solid fit. And some are wide bore , other narrow so definitely could impact FR at ear .

 

[OK1]

Just being careful. Some tip /shell/ear combinations work , some don't. I agree same tips for each iem being tested would be good but might still produce dodgy results if it impacts quality of seal or depth of insertion.

I need at least 2 very different types of tip to cover all my iem to ensure solid fit. And some are wide bore , other narrow so definitely could impact FR at ear .

Fully appreciate your comments. 100%. Yes the outer bore size + the eartip size, in combination, contribute to determining the fit. If there is a significant difference in the outer bore size between IEM's using the same size tips, sure the fit will be different and have an impact on the FR.

If there was one thing I would beg anyone to do, with IEM's, is get a good proper fit. It took me many months, to really appreciate this. Partly cos especially in the budget ranges of IEM's I started out with, their tips are not really designed for me with most likely larger canal entrance diameter than, many others.

As soon as I ordered tips, made about the most significant difference of any additional thing I have done, further to choosing which IEM to buy. Even the el-cheapo IEM's now sound acceptable - definitely ok-ish, once I used them with better fitting tip.

It's almost like the budget manufacturers deliberately do NOT provide the best fitting tips, so that some of us keep buying more of their products, in an attempt to get the right one, that sounds ok, when if only they would supply the product with better tips. We would not have to buy so many.

I am fortunate, the IEMs, I now use most often, the ARTTI T10, 7Hz Zero 2, and the KZ EDC Pro, are pretty close in the size of their outer bore. The Zero 2 is a bit smaller in this regard than the other two, but still delivers a good fit.

I do wish there would be more granular sizing of ear tips. i.e. sets with as many as 7 different sizes, not the current trend where most come in 3 sizes, and at the very most 4, and pretty rare 5 sizes. So one could get a truly exact fit.

Thanks.

 

[egellings]

My setup. Windows laptop via Reaper DAW => WASAPI Exclusive drivers, => USB-C => Tempotec Sonata BHD DAC dongle which has both balanced and unbalanced outputs => ARTTI T10 Planar magnetic IEM's.

I have two cables, both with 0.78 mm pins :

1. Balanced silver coated copper, which was delivered with the T10, with 4 "strands" 4.4mm

2. Single Ended/balanced, copper (not coated), which I bought separately, with 2 "strands" 3.5mm

I have no measurement tools to explain the difference I hear between these cables, even after I do my best to adjust the level, as best as I can to similar levels, on playback of audio from the Laptop.., as I switch between these cables.

The balanced cable was the one I was using for at least 3 months, then yesterday I had cause to compare the sonics of the Tempotec Sonata BHD, with an Apple USB-C DAC dongle, so wanted to use exactly the same cable, and the Apple dongle uses only unbalanced 3.5mm.

Subjective observations :

Switching back to the balanced cable on the T10, I noticed it sounded "bigger", than the unbalanced output, of course louder cos the balanced output has more power, but in my listening I adjusted that to be about the same in my ears, as when using the unbalanced cable.

The balances cable sounder bigger - after extensive swapping back and forth, (and each time adjusting for the volume difference in the playback level in the DAW Reaper) seemed to me to be - bassier, weightier, heavier, i.e. beefier. more bottom end, and the top end was smoothed out, not as piercing, in comparison to the unbalanced cable.

The balanced cable seemed to add some "harmonics", which smeared the sound juts a little bit, in comparison. I would not have heard this difference, after months of listening to the balanced cable, if I had not done this comparison. I had for whatever reason fully expected the balanced cable to sound better. Guess that is the result of marketing, I am not an electrical engineer or an audio researcher, just an audio mixing engineer. I only use and setup products, but do not create them.

I found listening via the unbalanced cable to be "drier", and clearer, and "cleaner", without the sense of smearing that the balanced cable seemed to introduce. It is difficult for me to go back to listen to the balanced cable, as lovely looking as it is.

I have no explanation. None whatsoever. Placebo would have caused me to prefer the balanced cable, but I do not. The unbalanced cable wins in clarity/transparency. It just sounds more accurate.

Will follow up in the next comment

Any difference you may be hearing could be based on the different circuitry (balanced, unbalanced) being auditioned, rather than the wire itself.

 

[Mojo Warrior]

Impedance mismatching can affect frequency response and sound perception.
Don't waste your time listening to wires.
Instead spend more time enjoying your favorite music, life is too short.
The World is not perfect and neither is sound reproduction.

Take the word of someone with 50 years in this hobby and has tried many, many types of wire and tweaks. Mostly, they are a waste of money and time (which is more valuable). I worked at a hi fi store (with a great college age technician) run by students while at University. We tested everything, ABX, blind testing, torture testing, you name it. Audio myths are just myths. There is no evidence.

 

[OK1]

Impedance mismatching can affect frequency response and sound perception.
Don't waste your time listening to wires.
Instead spend more time enjoying your favorite music, life is too short.
The World is not perfect and neither is sound reproduction.

Take the word of someone with 50 years in this hobby and has tried many, many types of wire and tweaks. Mostly, they are a waste of money and time (which is more valuable). I worked at a hi fi store (with a great college age technician) run by students while at University. We tested everything, ABX, blind testing, torture testing, you name it. Audio myths are just myths. There is no evidence.

Absolutely agree with you. I have been in the music/audio production side of things for a good while, and in that world - all the audio cables are made of nothing but just copper. Nothing else. And about the only place where any care is taken, or concern is paid, is to lower the capacitance of a cable, especially when connecting guitars, cos long lengths and higher capacitance does change the frequency response. But the cable is still 100% copper, on the inside.

But as a relative newbie to the hi-fi/audiophile scene, special cables for audio and power seem to be all the rage. The power one was easy for me to ignore, cos I had come across a bit of that in the professional audio side of things, and it had been soundly debunked - all one needs on a power cable is copper. But when it came to audio cables, and I head about silver coated, and pure silver cable, graphene, etc, etc, alloys, without being a scientist in that area of knowledge, its hard to debunk it. But when I thought back again to what happens in professional audio where everything is connected via copper, all the wonderful albums we love to listen to, were made on 100% copper audio cables, and they sound fantastic. How are we going to improve that sound by putting a bit of silver on the outside of cables - just a total waste of time.

When it hit me, by going back to the fundamentals, that copper is just fine, I started this other thread, to air that opinion.

Headphone Cables - Do we really need anything beyond copper, OFC at best?

This rabbit hole is deep. For many many years, in professional music, I was familiar with OFC - Oxide Free Copper. All my cables were just OFC, nothing more. The ARTTI T10 came with silver plated copper cables. And I do have one KZ silver plated copper cable, which I bought out of curiosity -...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[OK1]

There are two groups of audiophiles, the simpletons which I belong to, who have no desire to burst out a multi-meter, nor solder any cables. I can, but that does not give me any additional satisfaction, I just want to hear the audio at the best possible level, within a reasonable budget.

Then there are those who have an avid interest in the physics, and an oscilloscope would not be out of place in their inventory. Yeah they do go that far.

Over the last year, a few things are becoming clearer to me, on the hi-fi side of things. And on the Chinese Hi-Fi developments in recent years.

Stick to the dominant brands, any extra savings by buying from relative unknown brands is fine, nothing wrong with taking a risk, and trying things out. But when one wants peace of mind, pay a little bit more, and buy from a trusted brand.

The value for money is best at a sweet spot somewhere above the bottom of the barrel, and paying anything significantly above the odds, is a waste, unless of course you are loaded and can afford the extra bling or love the bragging rights of the esoteric measurements, which may not translate to an audible difference.

I have a lot of respect for the tests published on AudioScienceReview, they are very good guides to what is likely to be awesome sounding. Most of the items I have bought based on the tests, have been incredible value for money, and saved me a lot, in both time and money, and prevented me from going down a few rabbit holes. Buy one, buy right.

Then identifying relatively credible reviewers, who provide subjective as well as objective opinions, helps in the decision making. On Youtube, Akros, AndyAudioVault, Paul Wasabii, BangsAudioReviews, Tone Deaf Monk, Vortex and the chaps at Headphone.com do make a good effort to be relatively unbiased. and their opinions can add value.

Unfortunately, there is only one AmirM, and he can't test all of the products. Wish he could test more..!