IEM Cables. Please do not laugh, cos I sincerely hear a difference, contrary to expectations. Wish to explore WHY?

[OK1]

And get the 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter and use the same cable for both- will be both quicker and rule out different cable impedances affecting the FR.

Definitely a good idea. The challenge I have is I'm so new to this consumer end of things, e.g I ended up getting 3 separate Samsung USB-C dongle DAC's from reputable places including Amazon, yet all three were fakes, was able to return one of them thankfully, and get a refund. So am a bit jaded and somewhat exhausted with making so much effort yet coming up stumped, with the maze of discoveries, with one issue after another. A bit exhausted, from having to buy this and that, not so much about the money, but just when I think, ok I can now settle down and enjoy my audio chain, then something else comes up, to cause me again to "invest". Would like to get to the sunlight at the end of the tunnel and take a break from "researching" products, to fix gaps in my audio chain.

If I take your idea one bit further, to avoid buying the wrong thing and wonder where I went wrong, I have in mind to purchase one of these modular cables, which have e.g a 0.78mm 2 pin to connect to the headphone, and have adaptors that can swap out for balanced and unbalanced at the other end. Similar idea to yours, but the entire cable chain comes from the same source, and hopefully has been tested together, so I'm not second guessing - what went wrong from one part of the cable to another.

Right now I'm a bit jaded about the difference in what I heard, and not too happy that after all the effort, some piece of kit, somewhere in my audio chain is inconsistent, in a manner that I could never have anticipated.

Headphones & Amps: Balanced vs Unbalanced

If you’re going on measurements, sure. It’s a case of “live by the sword, die by the sword”. The focus by Benchmark is about its measurements, which are almost matched by an amp using similar technology for $400 instead of >$3,000, and which the deltas between are well below the most...

forum.headphones.com

This thread provided quite a bit of insight from people who I can imagine are more savvy than me and more familiar than me, with using balanced headphone outputs and unbalanced outputs, and listening to the difference.

Some of the posts are similar to what I have heard, in my own gear. If I summarize them :

1. The implementation of good quality single ended and balanced headphone outputs is not assured. It depends.

2. Some headphones/IEM's demonstrate a significant variance in audible results, when switched between balanced and unbalanced. Some do not demonstrate this variance.

Now the other thread does not proffer any explanations for the second observation, and it seems it's a complex issue with no one size fits all, across all kinds of headphones. If I were to add anything, I am relieved that I was NOT hearing "things", that there are other people who have also shared similar opinions, on a major forum that discussed headphones. Clearly even if I say so myself, this is a phenomenon that needs further study, and I would recommend any reviewers of headphones, to include a test for such variations in headphone outputs, when using them in balanced or unbalanced setups. I can imagine that not many people will be interested in such aspects of a review, I just happen to be one of the few people who has cause and would like to use the same pair of listening devices, on both balanced and unbalanced outputs, for reasons I have already outlined earlier, and have now had cause to discover - yes there is an issue, most likely with either some headphones or some headphone amps, which could affect noticeably the outcome on either of these outputs.

And same thing, reviewers of headphone amplifier devices of which a DAC dongle is one, should also be aware of this possible issue, which may or may not be present in the headphone outputs, i.e the overall quality of the implementation.

One of the things I would want to understand with the ARTTI T10, and with any other headphone, is the impedance vs frequency. I am only speculating here, it may be possible that at low frequencies, the output of the unbalanced outs on my BHD dongle make the T10 difficult to drive. It's a 16.5 ohm nominal input impedance IEM, with a somewhat low sensitivity, who knows what is happening in the low end. One of the things I'd try and remember to try out is, listening to the ARTTI T10, on my SABAJ A20h, which has way more power on both the unbalanced and balanced outputs, to more than meet any demands of the T10.

Not that it may apply to the T10, but some Over Ear Monitor Headphones which are planar magnetic, are known to need a bit of juice to drive them properly, and this could be the same case with the T10. We'll see, when I run the various tests I have planned.

The other thread seems to also infer, that some manufacturers may design their headphones to be more suited for either balanced or unbalanced headphone outputs. An interesting opinion.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

 

[unpluggged]

2. Some headphones/IEM's demonstrate a significant variance in audible results, when switched between balanced and unbalanced. Some do not demonstrate this variance. <...>
I would recommend any reviewers of headphones, to include a test for such variations in headphone outputs, when using them in balanced or unbalanced setups.

Headphones/IEMs do not discern between single-ended and differential ('balanced") drive.

It's been already explained in this thread how to conduct proper testing. It's better to spend your time in that direction, rather than continuing with pointless speculations.

 

[Astoneroad]

I'm waiting for Rod Serling to rise from the dead and narrate this episode of the Twilight Zone.

 

[somebodyelse]

reputable places including Amazon, yet all three were fakes

I'm not sure I'd describe Amazon as reputable, and they're somewhat notorious for fakes. Their reported practice of mixing nominally identical products from multiple sellers for 'fulfilled by Amazon' means you may get the fake supplied by the dodgy seller even if you order from the listing of the good seller. Then there are incidents like this where the seller takes the hit for Amazon's failures.

 

[JeremyFife]

It may be too late.

Break it down.

Changing balanced to single ended cables involves different sockets and therefore a change to the source. Until you measure and understand the difference in that change you can't say anything about listening differences.

After that, you can't compare listening observations unless they are level matched (by voltage), blind and repeated.

Until you do the above, nothing else is material. You can have an opinion, but it has little value.

There is a good body of work that says cables just don't matter. If you want to challenge that then remove the variables, apply good controls, then report your findings and we'll have something to work with.

Until you sort the basics, there's nothing much to discuss.

 

[OK1]

A

It may be too late.

Break it down.

Changing balanced to single ended cables involves different sockets and therefore a change to the source. Until you measure and understand the difference in that change you can't say anything about listening differences.

After that, you can't compare listening observations unless they are level matched (by voltage), blind and repeated.

Until you do the above, nothing else is material. You can have an opinion, but it has little value.

There is a good body of work that says cables just don't matter. If you want to challenge that then remove the variables, apply good controls, then report your findings and we'll have something to work with.

Until you sort the basics, there's nothing much to discuss.

If everyone who buys these devices now has to measure them, seriously we have a problem. It's like asking someone who bought a car to measure something in the peformance of their engines, when they clearly have no tools. We should not all need to be Amir, with measurement tools, to use basic devices like headphones and DACs. Life can't be that hard, it's 2024 please, we should not need to scratch our heads and wonder why certain combinations of devices change the sound we hear.

Sure many here have these measurement tools, but if we have to go that far, it's no longer a pastime or hobby, but more of an obsession. Not willing to become obsessed with measurements, to merely understand or use gear. I've never measured anything, except frequency response of speakers, and see absolutely no reason, to measure outputs of a headphone amp, when I can clearly hear the difference.

But of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's your prerogative. We all have that.

 

[JeremyFife]

A

If everyone who buys these devices now has to measure them, seriously we have a problem. It's like asking someone who bought a car to measure something in the peformance of their engines, when they clearly have no tools. We should not all need to be Amir, with measurement tools, to use basic devices like headphones and DACs. Life can't be that hard, it's 2024 please, we should not need to scratch our heads and wonder why certain combinations of devices change the sound we hear.

Sure many here have these measurement tools, but if we have to go that far, it's no longer a pastime or hobby, but more of an obsession. Not willing to become obsessed with measurements, to merely understand or use gear. I've never measured anything, except frequency response of speakers, and see absolutely no reason, to measure outputs of a headphone amp, when I can clearly hear the difference.

But of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's your prerogative. We all have that.

I agree, it's not difficult and there's no need to have measurement tools (I don't)

Cables don't make a difference, that has been shown. Electronics rarely make a difference, that has been shown.
Cognitive bias leads us to hear differences where there are none, that has been shown.

If you prefer the sound of your single ended cables then use them.

It's a hobby. If the electronics is also part of your hobby then cool, for me it's the music.

Don't look for something that is not there.

 

[unpluggged]

Sure many here have these measurement tools, but if we have to go that far, it's no longer a pastime or hobby, but more of an obsession. Not willing to become obsessed with measurements, to merely understand or use gear. I've never measured anything, except frequency response of speakers, and see absolutely no reason, to measure outputs of a headphone amp, when I can clearly hear the difference.

Again, it's you who came here making outstanding claims. It's you who asked for comments. It's you who apparently wants to figure things out. And it's up to you to conduct the simple test. Nobody else will show up at your place and do it for you.

You are saying that you are

serious logical enthusiast

have a science and computing/technology background and am an avid non professional musician and audio engineer

So it would be a natural thing for you to do, wouldn't it? Yet you elect to engage in a redundant argument here instead.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

we should not need to scratch our heads and wonder why certain combinations of devices change the sound we hear.

We aren’t. It’s perfectly clear what the most likely explanation is.

The thing I’m scratching my head about is why you can’t hear the sound of that explanation.

 

[Newman]

I have spend further time today, swapping between the balanced cable and the unbalanced cable on the T10 and the BHD, and am even more convinced, they do not sound the same. I prefer the balanced output. The unbalanced output sounds like a subwoofer was switched off !!!....anaemic. Still have not figured out why?

These impressions, despite your conviction, are simply not worth discussing until you have demonstrated that they survive a blind, level-matched listening test comprising multiple trials.

The odds are very strongly that they won't survive such a test, because that is the history of perceived 'cable sound': it has nothing to do with the configuration details of the cables, and everything to do with the Sighted Listening Effect and level differences.

The sole exception is if one (or both) of your cables is so heroically misconceived as to not be completely sonically transparent like any old cheap cable. Such cables should be thrown away. If you want a tone control, get a tone control and do it right.

Since expensive measurement gear is not in your purview, your simplest learning path is to conduct the level-matched blind listening test I described earlier, but add a third cable, namely a basic cheap cable, as a control. Whichever cable sounds different to the control in such a test should be thrown away.

You are wasting yours and our time asking questions about cause-and-effect vs cable configuration, when you haven't done a valid listening test.

cheers

 

[Chrispy]

A

If everyone who buys these devices now has to measure them, seriously we have a problem. It's like asking someone who bought a car to measure something in the peformance of their engines, when they clearly have no tools. We should not all need to be Amir, with measurement tools, to use basic devices like headphones and DACs. Life can't be that hard, it's 2024 please, we should not need to scratch our heads and wonder why certain combinations of devices change the sound we hear.

Sure many here have these measurement tools, but if we have to go that far, it's no longer a pastime or hobby, but more of an obsession. Not willing to become obsessed with measurements, to merely understand or use gear. I've never measured anything, except frequency response of speakers, and see absolutely no reason, to measure outputs of a headphone amp, when I can clearly hear the difference.

But of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's your prerogative. We all have that.

There are great measurements available on a site like this. Buying all sorts of the same/very similar gear is the bigger problem it seems, why are you doing that?

 

[tccalvin]

A

If everyone who buys these devices now has to measure them, seriously we have a problem. It's like asking someone who bought a car to measure something in the peformance of their engines, when they clearly have no tools. We should not all need to be Amir, with measurement tools, to use basic devices like headphones and DACs. Life can't be that hard, it's 2024 please, we should not need to scratch our heads and wonder why certain combinations of devices change the sound we hear.

Sure many here have these measurement tools, but if we have to go that far, it's no longer a pastime or hobby, but more of an obsession. Not willing to become obsessed with measurements, to merely understand or use gear. I've never measured anything, except frequency response of speakers, and see absolutely no reason, to measure outputs of a headphone amp, when I can clearly hear the difference.

But of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's your prerogative. We all have that.

You asked why you could hear a difference between cables.

Without measuring anything, the most likely explanations are placebo and/or faulty cables.

If you reject those answers and want to delve deeper, the only way of doing that is through scientific testing and measurements.

If you keep doing sighted, non-level-matched listening, you will never know whether your cables sound different or whether you're hearing differences due to placebo. That's just how it is.

 

[GXAlan]

If you're looking for a reason for the superiority of the Stradivarius you will never succeed because your premise is faulty.

I think this is a bit unfair to state just based upon these tests. In the tests that showed a preference or a projection favoring the modern instrument, they have demonstrated a detectable difference under blind testing. You have to imagine that part of the reason the Stradivarius is so magical is that the artist behind the violin was developed a technique specifically for that instrument. When it comes to a piano, you may travel to a site, sample a few options or work with a technician. For the violinist who has been gifted a Stradivarius by a patron, it means they are also a very talented musician…. So I would argue that going to the symphony where a Stradivarius is played will sound great because of all of the surrounding stuff.

But if you think about it, it also makes sense that modern flagship instruments can sound amazing. Kawai is a premium brand and spends a lot of time on engineering new stuff

Fazioli is another.

If everyone who buys these devices now has to measure them, seriously we have a problem. It's like asking someone who bought a car to measure something in the peformance of their engines, when they clearly have no tools.

Not quite. If you think Shell V-Power gas is better than generic ones, you don’t need to buy a dyno. You can use a phone app to measure 0-60 times, etc. If you are using your “butt dyno” you’re not going to get any sympathy.

We should not all need to be Amir, with measurement tools, to use basic devices like headphones and DACs.

Agreed. Enjoy the music.

Life can't be that hard, it's 2024 please, we should not need to scratch our heads and wonder why certain combinations of devices change the sound we hear.

Well, most people don’t. They get their Sonos or JBL or Bose gear and are on their way. But your title

Wish to explore WHY?​

Means you are wondering why… and people are trying to offer their input.

see absolutely no reason, to measure outputs of a headphone amp, when I can clearly hear the difference.

Which is fine. But you literally asked why?
And wanted to explore… in your title.

The reality is that this exploration is hard and expensive. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying what you have, but asking the question rhetorically doesn’t work when we have the group expertise to answer your question.

 

[Mort]

But of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's your prerogative. We all have that.

You did ask for our opinion, right? Did you only want the ones that corroborated your position?

 

[LIΟN]

Sure many here have these measurement tools, but if we have to go that far, it's no longer a pastime or hobby, but more of an obsession. Not willing to become obsessed with measurements, to merely understand or use gear. I've never measured anything, except frequency response of speakers, and see absolutely no reason, to measure outputs of a headphone amp, when I can clearly hear the difference.

Measurements are not absolutely necessary. If the changes you’ve experienced bring you joy, then that’s what matters most for you.
However, if you want to gain the agreement or empathy of others in communities that are largely based on scientific measurements while discussing differences between cables, thorough tests under controlled conditions, as other users often emphasize, are necessary.
No one can argue against what feels good to you personally.
There might be slight differences arising from cable impedance as well.
It’s impossible to know the exact changes introduced by a cable without measurements, especially when you don’t know how the cable was constructed. However, whether those changes translate into the significant differences you perceive is another matter entirely.

Additionally, different IEMs may feel more comfortable with certain cables or less comfortable with others. This, in turn, can lead to inconsistencies in fit, which directly affect aspects such as nozzle angle and insertion depth—factors that can undeniably alter the sound response.

Should we consider this improved comfort as part of the cable’s performance? If so, is it really a property of the cable itself? These aspects need to be separated in discussions. This is precisely why many in the thread suggest that conclusions based on uncontrolled tests often fail to resonate with others.

And just to clarify, I’ve also collected and bought a lot of IEM cables in the past. They’re just so beautiful, aren’t they?

Of course, the aesthetics of a cable provide me with a sense of emotional satisfaction. It looks beautiful, doesn’t it? That positive effect it has on me—could that be considered a form of "performance"?

I’ve even had an IEM cable made using Canare cable before.
I’ve heard a lot of people saying that making IEM cables with something like Canare is a pointless task, but honestly, it’s fun, isn’t it?

 

[polmuaddib]

When I read specs, typically balanced outputs are supposed to have lower crosstalk, albeit higher distortion(or maybe noise), than unbalanced

Why would balanced output have to have higher distortion then unbalanced? I am not aware of this.
The only differences between balanced and unbalanced signal is that balanced will be 6 db louder and it rejects common-made noise. No other property is different. Frequency response remains the same.
So, if you do hear a difference, it is different volume and that is why it sounds bigger and all that.

 

[Mr Swing King]

I’ve come across this ‘phenomenon’ quite a few times before with friends insisting on there to be a noticeable difference between se and a balanced cable. Better impact/resolution/blacker background/expanded scene/better imaging/etc were the most common things mentioned.
My music producing buddy then stepped in to clear things up a bit and fairly quickly found out that the volume level was the culprit…which makes sense to me.
I’ve tried a good deal of amp comparisons - usually starting out with my buddy asking the participants to volume match the different amps. This is a great way of showing how off people are - even when they think they’ve reached a level playing field volume wise. More often than not people are off by at least a couple of decibels…yet they are completely unaware of this - blaming the differences they hear on the aforementioned adjectives; better impact/resolution/whathaveyou.
The thing is though…when levels aren’t properly matched all you’re really doing is comparing different volume levels…and well louder is always better.

Cables either work or they don’t. I often wonder why the hi-fi hobby is the only place where people upgrade their cables. If cable magic had any footing in the real world, we would be seeing folks upgrading their coffeemakers, shavers, televisions and chandeliers…y’know just to get that extra bit of performance out of the thing…yet we never do.

Edith: with some modern iems the damping factor is very low which could lead to some funky business cable-wise…but then we’re still in the impedance mismatching camp rather than the magic one.

 

[GXAlan]

Why would balanced output have to have higher distortion then unbalanced? I am not aware of this.

No other property is different. Frequency response remains the same. So, if you do hear a difference, it is different volume and that is why it sounds bigger and all that.

That’s the theory, but you can see the balanced performance being much worse in both low cost and high cost products.

TempoTec Sonata BHD Pro Portable DAC & Amp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the TempoTec Sonata BHD Pro portable DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $70. I really like the fresh look of the BHD. There is a red LED that lights up the tiny ICs in there, giving it some elegance. There...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Review and Measurements of Accuphase E-270 Amplifier

This is a review and detailed measurements of Accuphase E-270 Integrated Amplifier. It is on kind loan from our friends at Gig Harbor Audio. It is their demo unit so I have to return it on Tuesday. So if you need something else to be measured, ask right away! The E-270 was released in 2017 I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Since Amir is calibrating by output voltage, volume should be matched.

 

[unpluggged]

it rejects common-made noise

It does not. The differential amplifier's input at the receiving side of a balanced line rejects common-mode interference, not the cable or the "signal". So this is not valid for headphone/speaker amplification.