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IEM Cables. Please do not laugh, cos I sincerely hear a difference, contrary to expectations. Wish to explore WHY?
- Thread starter OK1
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Zero Phase In Studio Monitors
This Voice Coil’s Spotlight, written by Vance Dickason with commentary from Floyd Toole, Wolfgang Klippel, Andrew Jones, and James Croft, focuses on Zero Phase in Studio Monitors. As Dickason explains, "the implication of using FIR filters to zero out the phase of a loudspeaker to improve its...
Dr. Toole on Phase
“It is difficult to see any reliable relationship to listener preference, except that those with the highest ratings had the smoothest curves, but linearity did not appear to be a factor.”
and
“If one chooses to design a loudspeaker system having linear phase, there will be only a very limited range of positions in space over which it will apply. This constraint can be accommodated for the direct sound from a loudspeaker, but even a single reflection destroys the relationship.”
But Wolfgang Klippel said:
“The effects of the amplitude caused by minimal-phase properties are dominant. However, if you have a multi-channel system (stereo and more) a phase difference of 50 ms will change the sound image (directivity).”
So while Dr Toole is precise with lots of data, it may not be true for headphones. Dr Klippel says that tests in mono are going to be different once you have two channels (or more).
There is support for zero-phase room correction like Trinnov but not for zero-phase speakers in those papers. Once you have the room “who knows what happens”.
But at least in my room, I compared normal HT subs and then “linear phase” subwoofers that only went down to 35 Hz and saw improvements.
This is the marketing for Trinnov Waveforming
This is my setup before with standard HT subs from PowerSoundAudio and a MiniDSP EQ’d 2216nd and after
But in this room, trying a pair of Meyer Sound MM-10 subs got me this BEFORE measurement:
It sure looks different, and Dr Toole did say that zero phase itself may not be as important as the smoothness of the phase… and this looks smooth but even then the difference is subtle.
Edit: The main difference is that the Meyer Sound sub is specified to be phase accurate
There are things that are LOWER in priority to frequency response (FR) and SPL and a Spinorama tells us a lot. But in that same article, Andrew Jones said that a lot of older tests were done with better phase VERSUS better FR because the technology at the time didn’t allow perfect comparisons. When the comparison is truly great FR *and* great phase versus just great FR, it’s a different story.
We also don’t know if room correction algorithms that focus on phase have an easier time correcting speakers with smoother phase responses or if it’s all within the scope of correction.
There are
Measured differences between interconnect cables
Presented purely for interest. TLDR: 1) Differences in cables exist and can be measured at the audio level and achieve statistically significant differences 2) The differences are vanishingly small, so it doesn't make sense when listening to audio 3) The differences may make a difference when...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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@OK1 the easy answer is that we have established that the TempoTec Pro performs differently between the two outputs. Yours may do the same.
This allows your “system” to sound different when you have only changed the cables, yet still demonstrate no difference attributed to the cables.
I think your best bet is buying a E1DA Cosmos ADC in the long run and a calibrated microphone. Even if you tape a random microphone to the headphone, as long as nothing moves, you can still get good nulls with repeated measurements allowing you to compare the acoustic output when changing electronics.
If you just want to know, buy another cheap unbalanced and balanced cable. If the difference is always balanced vs unbalanced and not *between* cables, it also helps you see that the TempoTec is the likely culprit.
If you think the difference in volume is 10 dB, measure it! That’s easy enough.
- Thread Starter
- #24
Thank your for your well informed contribution. Highly appreciatedIf you really want to know, you have to measure it. Take a look at all of my data.
You first need to test your headphone amp electrically. You assume that the balanced and unbalanced are similar except for volume, but when Amir tested his, he got much better SINAD out of the unbalanced output.
TempoTec Sonata BHD Pro Portable DAC & Amp Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the TempoTec Sonata BHD Pro portable DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $70. I really like the fresh look of the BHD. There is a red LED that lights up the tiny ICs in there, giving it some elegance. There...
You never know if your copy or your setup is worse or not since it’s USB powered.
Note, that it seems that the common response on these kinds of posts are to jump on unblinded bias, but it is interesting that the unbalanced sounds better, you thought balanced would sound better, and the measurements suggest that the two outputs are different. This is where ASR membership fails on responding to posts about subjective differences. Instead of starting by debunking, start by figuring what we know about the OP’s test environment.
Both of these SINAD numbers should be transparent, but you are not listening to a 1 kHz test tone at 0 dBFS.
This is where if you measured your own DAC specifically with the music you listen to, you can then do a null comparison.
NEXT, your IEMs are 16 ohms.
View attachment 408865
While the SINAD is better on unbalanced, notice how you have worse SINAD with unbalanced from 1 mW to 79 mW and better SINAD at even lower volumes.
This is a bit like a subtle version of my 300B SET measurements. You don’t hear distortion as distortion but as volume. If high power has a jump, it may provide an inverted loudness feature where loud sounds are even louder. This may make the unbalanced output sound better.
So it’s weird, on the power vs distortion, unbalanced is worse. On the single 1 kHz SINAD, unbalanced is better
I don’t think it’s sighted bias. But you won’t really know until you start measuring with the music that you hear the big differences on. After electrical measurement, you’d want to use something like the EARS mic to measure the acoustic difference.
It seems like a waste of money to spend so much on test gear, but at least for me, it got me to my end game.
Edit: Amir tested the “Pro” version of the TempoTec. Yours might be different and have even bigger differences between the two?
I obviously do not have any intention at this time, of investing in any measuring gear, cos I simply do not have the skills, in the subject matter. That would have been the ideal 1st step, to understand what is going on.
I must add. I truly value the objective approach, and when I have used measuring equipment such as measuring speakers, with measurement microphones, to adjust frequencies, it has added a huge value, to me as a listener and audio professional.
I sincerely have a lot of "faith" in the objective tests of products, which is some of the main content on this forum. This has been quite informative and guided most of my acquisitions, in recent times. Most of what I have bought has been gear tested on ASR. But I add a funny story, which you'll find in a few other posts and other threads. Based on Amir's testing, I bought three different Samsung USB-C dongles, and all of them were "fake". So much for objective tests !!!..
Subjectively, I can hear the difference between the Apple USB-C dongle and the TempoTec Sonata BHD. and appreciate the benefit of the higher specced DAC dongle. No regrets spending more there.
There is one more factor. It takes me at least a minute or two to swap the ARTTI T10 earpieces from one cable to another, and I have to put the earpieces back in my ear again, and with IEM's every single small change in position, in insertion depth, can have a discernible impact. So it could simply be either :
1. Poor memory recollection across the time it takes to swap the earpieces from one cable to another.
2. Changes in insertion position in my ears.
The one thing I take from all this interest, hobby, adventure, exploration, is : it's really difficult to buy one of anything, so hard, one ends up buying two or three or four of each piece of gear, to hear for oneself, the impact of the improved measures, i.e what does this measurement improvement mean - how and if does it translate to better hearing or better listening?
I've bought so far :
-5 dongle DAC's, 3 which I use no more - the 3 fake Samsung DAC's bought on good faith based on Amir's measurement of the original product.
-6 IEM's and at least 4 other IEM like things, of which two should be on their way to the landfill, cos either I was unlucky with their manufacturing consistency or the design was not good enough - one of them went faulty and the paint was peeling within 24 hours of delivery.
Now to thoroughly isolate any issues, will be adding some spare balanced and unbalanced IEM cables, to double check that any issues are not coming form the cable. But this is not unusual, in my other hobby/profession - audio engineering, it is NORMAL, to have all manner of spare devices, cos even with the best intentions, good quality gear goes wonky, and the quick way to check, in a pinch, is to have a few spare cables, to do A/B testing., Just in case the cable is the source of the issue.
I know this may sound subjective, but I am reminded of the 1st time I ever used balanced cables to replace unbalanced cables, connecting an Audio interface to some active speakers. It just sounded better, not because of the increased level, but it just did, and I had completely forgotten about that, cos I rarely listen to speakers now.
Thanks for the enlightening conversation.
- Thread Starter
- #25
Good idea. Thanks. That should not be too expensive to acquire, a voltmeter. On that note, it's been at least 40 years since I used one, when studying physics. That should be fun.
- Thread Starter
- #26
You may note, I added the following to my 2nd post on this thread, so I have considered the most obvious possible differences, and that includes any variation between the balanced circuit and the unbalanced circuit in the dongle DAC.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is the comparative smearing and boominess I am hearing in my balanced cable, caused by :
1. The extra thickness of the copper - more strands?
2. The use of a balanced circuit, in the headphone output of the DAC?, with differences in the crosstalk or distortion/noise.
3. The silver coating
somebodyelse
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The operative word being 'supposed' here. Blind tests in 2010, 2014 and 2017 suggest otherwise. The 2014 test was intended to address some criticisms of the 2010 test. The response from one of the 2010 participants adds some context missing from most of the press coverage.
https://www.science.org/content/article/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check
https://www.science.org/content/art...-distinguish-legendary-violins-modern-fiddles
https://www.thestrad.com/lutherie/b...s-violins-from-modern-instruments/994.article
https://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20121/13039/
If you're looking for a reason for the superiority of the Stradivarius you will never succeed because your premise is faulty. Similarly here you first need to determine whether you can actually hear a difference when all known confounding factors have been controlled, such as by proper volume matching by measurement not by ear.
- Thread Starter
- #28
I must be out of date on the subject. I'll read up on your reference links. Looks like the impressions of these revered instruments has changed !! Thanks.
- Thread Starter
- #29
No contest, the balanced output and balanced cable is definitely more bassy. Slams more, in the low end.
Further listening indicates to me, this is not primarily something related to distortion, in the DAC. What I'm hearing is a difference in the frequency response. 100% sure of this. With the unbalanced outputs, the bass instruments are recessed, and vocals more prominent.
The difference is very apparent to me. I do not think it has anything to do with the distortion variations, between the balanced and unbalanced outputs, cos what I'm hearing is pretty significant, in the difference, and is a definite change in frequency response.
The mids are also more prominent in the balanced output. At this time, I do not think one is better than the other, just different, the unbalanced is brighter, like a subwoofer was turned off, and a high shelf boost EQ was added. So it depends on what I want to focus on in the music. Mids/Highs - Unbalanced. Lows and Mids - Balanced, would be my preferences. The balanced just has more weight and naturalness, of course all this is subjective, both sound nice, but are definitely NOT the same frequency response. On extensive listen, I now prefer the frequency balance of the balanced output., just so much more natural, and 3 dimensional. Reverb and placement cues are just so fatigue free, and yes the music sounds so smooth., and deep, like velvet.
So nailing this difference down to one of two things :
1. Something about the difference in the cables between balanced and unbalanced. Capacitance?, inductance?
2. Something about the increased power on the balanced outputs being able to do "something" to the frequency response of the ARTTI T10's driver.
I'm going to have to order some balanced cables for my other IEM's and headphones.
Thanks all.
Further listening indicates to me, this is not primarily something related to distortion, in the DAC. What I'm hearing is a difference in the frequency response. 100% sure of this. With the unbalanced outputs, the bass instruments are recessed, and vocals more prominent.
The difference is very apparent to me. I do not think it has anything to do with the distortion variations, between the balanced and unbalanced outputs, cos what I'm hearing is pretty significant, in the difference, and is a definite change in frequency response.
The mids are also more prominent in the balanced output. At this time, I do not think one is better than the other, just different, the unbalanced is brighter, like a subwoofer was turned off, and a high shelf boost EQ was added. So it depends on what I want to focus on in the music. Mids/Highs - Unbalanced. Lows and Mids - Balanced, would be my preferences. The balanced just has more weight and naturalness, of course all this is subjective, both sound nice, but are definitely NOT the same frequency response. On extensive listen, I now prefer the frequency balance of the balanced output., just so much more natural, and 3 dimensional. Reverb and placement cues are just so fatigue free, and yes the music sounds so smooth., and deep, like velvet.
So nailing this difference down to one of two things :
1. Something about the difference in the cables between balanced and unbalanced. Capacitance?, inductance?
2. Something about the increased power on the balanced outputs being able to do "something" to the frequency response of the ARTTI T10's driver.
I'm going to have to order some balanced cables for my other IEM's and headphones.
Thanks all.
caught gesture
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Thread Starter
- #32
Making some hopefully intelligent assumptions :
1. I would not expect the balanced and unbalanced outputs to have such an easily discernible variance in frequency response. It would be sacrilege for a business such as Tempotec, to have left such a glaring fault in their product.
2. I do not think a product defect, in my copy would introduce such a huge audible variance, in frequency response.
3. I am unable to narrow it down to the cable, until I purchase some alternative cables, both balanced and unbalanced, planning to get at least two more of each, from different suppliers, so I can swap out cables on the balanced and unbalanced outputs, and narrow it down to a cable issue or output choice issue. Simple A/B testing with other good quality cables, should help me be more assertive about whether the issue is the cable or the choice of headphone output.
4. Until I test with some additional cables, which I do not have at this time, my gut feeling is it is NOT a cable issue, I would be a bit surprised if the cables I have now have been the cause of such a discernible variation in frequency response.
5. My gut feeling, subject to the aforementioned cable swaps, is that the IEM is responding in a different manner, i.e. marked noticeable frequency response difference, to the different outputs.
6. Nevertheless, let me not assume too much, it could be that the TempoTec Sonata BHD, does have a different frequency response, between their balanced and unbalanced headphone outputs. The only way to eliminate this as the cause of the issue, would be to test with another similar dongle which has both balanced and unbalanced headphone outputs. OR there is also another way of checking this, test the same ARTTI T10, with the balanced and unbalanced headphone outputs of another decent headphone amp. I have one - a Sabaj A20h, so one of these days, I'll drag it out, and hook it up to one of my other DAC which I have, an EMU 1212M, or the EMU 0404 USB's line outputs.
Unfortunately, I am no expert in these matters, only being aware that some headphones need more power to drive them properly. I once had to return a birthday present - a headphone, and ask for another to be bought for me, which I later realised was due to the inadequate power of the source - the headphone output of a Windows laptop, which I had been using to power a fairly high input impedance headphone. The replacement did so much better - an AKG K702.
For whatever it is worth, this experience is educational. There is only so much that one can read about when it comes to gear, and only so much one can absorb from what others measure and describe. Ultimately, we have to experience the TRUTH, for ourselves. It is impossible for reviewers to cover every single combination of gear. For example I am not sure how much testing is done between various headphone outputs, balanced and unbalanced, when certain headphones are tested on ASR, and other sites.
And I cannot recall seeing anything on what is the standard output for these tests - balanced or unbalanced headphone output, which is used for the various frequency response measurements, in the public domain, and in reviews. It would be interesting to discover that for some headphones, the frequency response is different. I can imagine that most may not notice, cos they will typically pick one, and stick with that headphone output, just as I did for months, not being the wiser that the IEM could sound different.
This could also help explain one of my other broad observations. By and large I have found the bass response of the small number of KZ/CCA IEM's I have acquired (4 so far), to be markedly limited, in comparison to the bass of the ARTTI T10. Who knows if the reason for this, is simply the fact that I have been listening to all the KZ/CCA's using unbalanced cables, which is what all of these KZ/CCA's are supplied with (can't recall being able to order any balanced cables with a KZ/CCA IEM.)? Hitherto I had attributed this to IEM design.
All this by the grace of God, who gives life, to fulfil intentions. So easy to make all these plans and plans, forgetting that we have no power over our own existence. I'm in my latter years, so I value each day, the more.
The take home from all this is, there are obviously from my personal experience, so many rabbit holes one has to go down, in this hobby or consumer segment. Requiring us to go beyond the information garnered by reviews, which is highly appreciated, but we have to do our own personal "tests", not so much with measurement equipment, cos most of us cannot afford this or do not have the knowledge or time. But to invest a small fortune in :
1. A few different DACs and or Headphone Amps.
2. A few different IEM's and Headphones of different driver topologies
3. A few different cables
4. Have a variety of sound sources e.g lossy, and lossless, possibly at various sampling rates
5. And a couple of different speakers, for those who need speakers.
All of this being the only way to conclusively try things out in one's own environment, at one's own time. Who could have imagined that the balanced and unbalanced output of a headphone AMP/DAC dongle, could sound so different? Never heard anyone mention any such variances, but as I said earlier, most people would not be swapping a headphone or IEM, between these outputs, they would pick one, typically based on the cables that were acquired with the IEM/Headphone, and would not be the wiser.
Not exactly a cheap hobby, and I have no regrets, but this is sadly the reality, that reviews can only go so far, in the level of detail and quirks that they throw up. Ultimately at the end of all this personal testing and swap outs, one would have come to not just a theoretic conclusion of what sounds best, but what actually works best with what, based on actual tests/auditions.
I could never have imagined how deep the rabbit hole goes, in the consumer HiFi space, which is where balanced headphone outputs are typically used. I had no use for balanced headphone outputs in the professional audio space. But in a way, if this issue of balanced headphone outputs does make a difference, or makes a difference to some headphones/IEM's this will be a most valuable lesson learned.
No regrets.
- Thread Starter
- #33
The only reason I initially changed the cable was over time I had moved from some KZ/CCA cheapie dynamic IEM's to the ARTTI T10, which is head and shoulders above these other IEM's in the resolution and frequency response accuracy. Just in another league. No contest.
So now I had a better listening device, the T10, I wanted to revisit the comparison between the TempoTec Sonata BHD DAC dongle, and an Apple USB-C DAC dongle. The only way to equitably compare these DAC dongles, was to use the T10 with an unbalanced cable, rather than the balanced cable which I ordered it with. So I had bought an unbalanced cable for the T10 separately, so I could use the T10 with my digital stage piano, at home, and also use it to monitor when I do live mixes for events. I'm also a musician and audio engineer, both of these as hobbies and also my profession.
So with the T10 and the unbalanced cable, I was able to compare, at a good quality, the TempoTec SOnata BHD, and the Apple USB-C Dac dongle, as well as use theT10 with the headphone outputs of my digital stage piano, and the mixer at my live events - which also have unbalanced outputs.
It was when I now reverted to the balanced cable which had been the de-facto cable which I normally listen to the T10, and the BHD dongle, that it was obvious to me, something is different !, then I spent hours yesterday going back and forth between the balanced and unbalanced cables, which led to me starting this thread, to reach out and understand better what my ears were definitely hearing.
I have spend further time today, swapping between the balanced cable and the unbalanced cable on the T10 and the BHD, and am even more convinced, they do not sound the same. I prefer the balanced output. The unbalanced output sounds like a subwoofer was switched off !!!....anaemic. Still have not figured out why?
But over the next few weeks, as I order, by the grace of God, more cables, headphones and IEM's and maybe another good quality dongle DAC, I'll get to the bottom of the issue, and it will be a huge much needed education. No more theories, and conjecture but will arrive at an exact understanding of what's going on. And can say without a doubt if its the DAC/Headphone Amp, or the IEM's in question - the T10, or the cables that are responsible for this variation, I have observed.
We'll by the grace of God, get to the bottom of all this.
One important thing to clear up.
Saying that the differences you hear are likely due to placebo is not in any way the same as saying that you're lying or that you don't hear a difference.
You do hear a difference.
To offer an analogy, control groups are incredibly important in medical testing precisely because people that take placebos instead of actual medicines mysteriously end up being cured at times.
The mind is a very powerful thing.
In fact, I would argue that there's nothing inherently wrong with enjoying something more even though it's likely due to placebo. If you enjoy that thing more, then that's great.
The problem with chasing placebo is that it can lead you down a path of obsession and meaningless spending, and it can get in the way of simply enjoying music (or whatever hobby you are engaging with).
Before going down the rabbit hole, I would recommend trying out some online blind ABX tests to check just how sensitive your ears generally are.
I did some blind ABX testing with compressed and uncompressed audio files some time ago and the experience has been very sobering. I was certain I heard differences between the files (and I did) but they were in my head. Again, It doesn't mean I was lying, it just meant that the reason why I was hearing differences was placebo.
EDIT: Typos.
Saying that the differences you hear are likely due to placebo is not in any way the same as saying that you're lying or that you don't hear a difference.
You do hear a difference.
To offer an analogy, control groups are incredibly important in medical testing precisely because people that take placebos instead of actual medicines mysteriously end up being cured at times.
The mind is a very powerful thing.
In fact, I would argue that there's nothing inherently wrong with enjoying something more even though it's likely due to placebo. If you enjoy that thing more, then that's great.
The problem with chasing placebo is that it can lead you down a path of obsession and meaningless spending, and it can get in the way of simply enjoying music (or whatever hobby you are engaging with).
Before going down the rabbit hole, I would recommend trying out some online blind ABX tests to check just how sensitive your ears generally are.
I did some blind ABX testing with compressed and uncompressed audio files some time ago and the experience has been very sobering. I was certain I heard differences between the files (and I did) but they were in my head. Again, It doesn't mean I was lying, it just meant that the reason why I was hearing differences was placebo.
EDIT: Typos.
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Get a multimeter before anything else. Measure the output voltage from the BHD at the level you listened to the 4.4 output at, then do the same for the 3.5. They will very likely be different by more than 0.2v. Level them, then try again.
How to level matched the output of DAC Dongle?
Hello ASR Pardon my ignorance, recently i bought a DAC dongle with two output (SE and BAL), my question is how to level matched it? I want to blind test for myself, i know Single Ended and Balanced connection is nothing to do with sound quality, but for the sake of curiosity i want to compare...
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And get the 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter and use the same cable for both- will be both quicker and rule out different cable impedances affecting the FR.Get a multimeter before anything else. Measure the output voltage from the BHD at the level you listened to the 4.4 output at, then do the same for the 3.5. They will very likely be different by more than 0.2v. Level them, then try again.
How to level matched the output of DAC Dongle?
Hello ASR Pardon my ignorance, recently i bought a DAC dongle with two output (SE and BAL), my question is how to level matched it? I want to blind test for myself, i know Single Ended and Balanced connection is nothing to do with sound quality, but for the sake of curiosity i want to compare...
somebodyelse
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This is where we need to be sure we agree on terminology. Some say 'hear' means using your ears only, and that the controls are needed to make sure you are really hearing a difference, rather than perceiving a difference due to input from multiple senses. Others, as in your use, consider hearing to be multi-sense perception.
Some medical problems may go on their own accord, and if a sugar pill is taken just before that happens, the pill may get erroneously credited for the recovery.
And sometimes we get better just because we believe we're getting better.
I've had too many self-induced panic attacks to not notice how my mind can affect my body. :'^)