IEM Cables. Please do not laugh, cos I sincerely hear a difference, contrary to expectations. Wish to explore WHY?

[OK1]

My setup. Windows laptop via Reaper DAW => WASAPI Exclusive drivers, => USB-C => Tempotec Sonata BHD DAC dongle which has both balanced and unbalanced outputs => ARTTI T10 Planar magnetic IEM's.

I have two cables, both with 0.78 mm pins :

1. Balanced silver coated copper, which was delivered with the T10, with 4 "strands" 4.4mm

2. Single Ended/balanced, copper (not coated), which I bought separately, with 2 "strands" 3.5mm

I have no measurement tools to explain the difference I hear between these cables, even after I do my best to adjust the level, as best as I can to similar levels, on playback of audio from the Laptop.., as I switch between these cables.

The balanced cable was the one I was using for at least 3 months, then yesterday I had cause to compare the sonics of the Tempotec Sonata BHD, with an Apple USB-C DAC dongle, so wanted to use exactly the same cable, and the Apple dongle uses only unbalanced 3.5mm.

Subjective observations :

Switching back to the balanced cable on the T10, I noticed it sounded "bigger", than the unbalanced output, of course louder cos the balanced output has more power, but in my listening I adjusted that to be about the same in my ears, as when using the unbalanced cable.

The balances cable sounder bigger - after extensive swapping back and forth, (and each time adjusting for the volume difference in the playback level in the DAW Reaper) seemed to me to be - bassier, weightier, heavier, i.e. beefier. more bottom end, and the top end was smoothed out, not as piercing, in comparison to the unbalanced cable.

The balanced cable seemed to add some "harmonics", which smeared the sound juts a little bit, in comparison. I would not have heard this difference, after months of listening to the balanced cable, if I had not done this comparison. I had for whatever reason fully expected the balanced cable to sound better. Guess that is the result of marketing, I am not an electrical engineer or an audio researcher, just an audio mixing engineer. I only use and setup products, but do not create them.

I found listening via the unbalanced cable to be "drier", and clearer, and "cleaner", without the sense of smearing that the balanced cable seemed to introduce. It is difficult for me to go back to listen to the balanced cable, as lovely looking as it is.

I have no explanation. None whatsoever. Placebo would have caused me to prefer the balanced cable, but I do not. The unbalanced cable wins in clarity/transparency. It just sounds more accurate.

Will follow up in the next comment

 

[threni]

No.

 

[Astoneroad]

Placebo would have caused me to prefer the balanced cable

Why?

 

[anaveragebear]

My educated guess: Consider all the variables surrounding the two cables and the experience of using them that don't involve the actual sound reproduction itself. How do they look? How do they feel? How much time does it take to switch them? Maybe the impedance is causing a level difference --- even a difference of 0.2 dB is perceptible to untrained listeners iirc. And at the end of the day --- it doesn't need to make an objective difference. You're allowed to be susceptible to the placebo effect; that doesn't say anything about your status as a knowledgeable person. If you enjoy one cable more then use that cable. Keep the end goal in mind: maximum musical enjoyment.

 

[OK1]

When I read specs, typically balanced outputs are supposed to have lower crosstalk, albeit higher distortion(or maybe noise), than unbalanced. But I wonder how audible is any of this?

The only reason I ordered the ARTTI T10 with a balanced cable, was cos I had never experienced using a balanced cable, and the "balanced" sounded to me like I was missing something, and I wanted to be future proof which is why I bought the Tempotec Sonata BHD, cos it has both balanced and unbalanced outputs.

All I have is my own impressions of course, with respect to the difference I'm hearing, which was unexpected, completely unexpected, but I have to say it like I heard it, strange as my observations may be, and however contrary they may seem, or controversial.

I am aware I am on a science oriented forum. But science has two angles to it. Sometimes it is observations that lead to us finding out why, which was how science worked for many many centuries, until today we now have some science which works the other way round, from theories leading to predictions - like Einstein predicting the existence of black holes. So even though this is a science forum, it should be perfectly valid for one to be able to present observations, without undue criticism, even where there is no explanation yet.

I have always advocated that cables should not make an audible difference cos that is what I have been reading for at least a decade. In my semi/professional life as a musician, I just buy or use decent cables for the audio connections, oxygen free copper, but never anything more exotic than that. I have not had to use speaker cables in recent times, cos all my speakers are active. So typically I do not use any silver coated or anything else except just plain copper cables.

I'll be honest, I am not too bothered if or if not, I discover why. Cos I am open to the possibility that the explanation may become available after I am gone (i.e dead). That's life, those who lived before us, did not have the kind of knowledge we now have, on a plethora of subjects, but they knew that certain things worked, even when they did not understand why?

Stradivarius violins are supposed to sound superior, and we are still speculating on the reason why, and still have not been able to fully explain this. I wish science could always explain everything, but we have to accept, we may not know everything.

Is the comparative smearing and boominess I am hearing in my balanced cable, caused by :

1. The extra thickness of the copper - more strands?
2. The use of a balanced circuit, in the headphone output of the DAC?, with differences in the crosstalk or distortion/noise.
3. The silver coating

I have no explanation, but hear what I hear, and cannot deny that I heard a definite unexpected difference and the unbalanced sounds better.

Not wishing to cause or start any controversy, simply being public about the surprising observation, which I think is still a valid aspect of the scientific process, even where it may contradict all the knowledge we know today. This is how we may learn more. I hope. It would be wonderful, if there already exists credible explanations for the difference I am hearing. That would be great.

My setup. Windows laptop via Reaper DAW => WASAPI Exclusive drivers, => USB-C => Tempotec Sonata BHD DAC dongle which has both balanced and unbalanced outputs => ARTTI T10 Planar magnetic IEM's.

I have two cables, both with 0.78 mm pins :

1. Balanced silver coated copper, which was delivered with the T10, with 4 "strands" 4.4mm

2. Single Ended/balanced, copper (not coated), which I bought separately, with 2 "strands" 3.5mm

I have no measurement tools to explain the difference I hear between these cables, even after I do my best to adjust the level, as best as I can to similar levels, on playback of audio from the Laptop.., as I switch between these cables.

The balanced cable was the one I was using for at least 3 months, then yesterday I had cause to compare the sonics of the Tempotec Sonata BHD, with an Apple USB-C DAC dongle, so wanted to use exactly the same cable, and the Apple dongle uses only unbalanced 3.5mm.

Subjective observations :

Switching back to the balanced cable on the T10, I noticed it sounded "bigger", than the unbalanced output, of course louder cos the balanced output has more power, but in my listening I adjusted that to be about the same in my ears, as when using the unbalanced cable.

The balances cable sounder bigger - after extensive swapping back and forth, (and each time adjusting for the volume difference in the playback level in the DAW Reaper) seemed to me to be - bassier, weightier, heavier, i.e. beefier. more bottom end, and the top end was smoothed out, not as piercing, in comparison to the unbalanced cable.

The balanced cable seemed to add some "harmonics", which smeared the sound juts a little bit, in comparison. I would not have heard this difference, after months of listening to the balanced cable, if I had not done this comparison. I had for whatever reason fully expected the balanced cable to sound better. Guess that is the result of marketing, I am not an electrical engineer or an audio researcher, just an audio mixing engineer. I only use and setup products, but do not create them.

I found listening via the unbalanced cable to be "drier", and clearer, and "cleaner", without the sense of smearing that the balanced cable seemed to introduce. It is difficult for me to go back to listen to the balanced cable, as lovely looking as it is.

I have no explanation. None whatsoever. Placebo would have caused me to prefer the balanced cable, but I do not. The unbalanced cable wins in clarity/transparency. It just sounds more accurate.

Will follow up in the next comment

 

[Astoneroad]

Our perception of audio

Frantz post this on WBF forum and I thought it also belongs here. It is the most fundamental concept in audio evaluation and we need to get on the same page on it. The text is my response to his post. --- Thus the present question. How reliable are our perceptions? Do we hear things that are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Jimbob54]

All other things being equal, balanced connections will be 6db louder.

So if all you do is swap from balanced to unbalanced cable and plug back into the relevant socket on the dac, it will be quieter.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I have no explanation,

Sighted testing, not properly level matched

 

[OK1]

Why?

1. Marketing. "balanced" just sounds better, and is only found in higher end devices, while the ordinary person has never heard about them, i.e. balanced is something you only learn about, with regard to headphones and IEMs, from the "hi-fi"/audiophile community. In professional audio, balanced does mean lower noise in practice for audio cables - but that is a different kind of balanced. So could be the assignation of the good properties of balanced audio cables, from my other life as a semi/pro audio person, from another world where balanced does mean better sound., to the use of balanced cables in headphones/IEMs, where balanced may not exactly mean higher fidelity.

The main reason I used balanced cables for the IEM, was to ensure the DAC would have no issues delivering enough power, to drive the planar magnetic ARTTI T10's. I sincerely did not expect there to be any audible advantage of a balanced cable over an unbalanced cable, or vice versa.

Only advantage to me, was power delivery, being higher in a balanced output, nothing more, which was why the audible difference was a surprise (when adjusted to similar audio levels after each cable swap..

2. Balanced cables typically cost a bit more
3. Devices with balanced headphone outputs also cost more
4. Balanced outputs usually measure better in crosstalk

 

[Jimbob54]

All other things being equal, balanced connections will be 6db louder.

So if all you do is swap from balanced to unbalanced cable and plug back into the relevant socket on the dac, it will be quieter.

You can prove this to yourself easily. Buy a 4.4 to 3.5 adapter and connect it to your balanced cable and plug into the 3.5mm of the BHD. Then swap back to the unbalanced cable into the 3.5. It will be identical

 

[OK1]

All other things being equal, balanced connections will be 6db louder.

So if all you do is swap from balanced to unbalanced cable and plug back into the relevant socket on the dac, it will be quieter.

Fully aware of this change in level, and expected this, but also adjusted for this in the playback software, typically lowering the level of playback of balanced by about 9 or 10 dB, in comparison to the level for unbalanced.

Notice I did this by ear.

Initially I assumed the 6dB difference as you have indicated, but discovered while swapping, it was more than 6dB.

 

[Astoneroad]

1. Marketing. "balanced" just sounds better, and is only found in higher end devices, while the ordinary person has never heard about them, i.e. balanced is something you only learn about, with regard to headphones and IEMs, from the "hi-fi"/audiophile community. In professional audio, balanced does mean lower noise in practice for audio cables - but that is a different kind of balanced. So could be the assignation of the good properties of balanced audio cables, from my other life as a semi/pro audio person, from another world where balanced does mean better sound., to the use of balanced cables in headphones/IEMs, where balanced may not exactly mean higher fidelity.

The main reason I used balanced cables for the IEM, was to ensure the DAC would have no issues delivering enough power, to drive the planar magnetic ARTTI T10's. I sincerely did not expect there to be any audible advantage of a balanced cable over an unbalanced cable, or vice versa.

Only advantage to me, was power delivery, being higher in a balanced output, nothing more, which was why the audible difference was a surprise (when adjusted to similar audio levels after each cable swap..

2. Balanced cables typically cost a bit more
3. Devices with balanced headphone outputs also cost more
4. Balanced outputs usually measure better in crosstalk

I was questioning "why" the placebo would have "caused" any given outcome. Perhaps I don't fully grasp the role of a placebo in a blind test. I thought it was an agnostic player without causation. Apologies if I've got that wrong.

 

[Jimbob54]

Fully aware of this change in level, and expected this, but also adjusted for this in the playback software, typically lowering the level of playback of balanced by about 9 or 10 dB, in comparison to the level for unbalanced.

Notice I did this by ear.

Initially I assumed the 6dB difference as you have indicated, but discovered while swapping, it was more than 6dB.

Then check by multimeter or do my follow on suggestion

Or possibly one of the cables has an unusually high impedance.

 

[OK1]

You can prove this to yourself easily. Buy a 4.4 to 3.5 adapter and connect it to your balanced cable and plug into the 3.5mm of the BHD. Then swap back to the unbalanced cable into the 3.5. It will be identical

Now that is an experiment I must conduct soon. Thanks. Will do.

 

[OK1]

Cable argument put forward by a scientist

I stumbled on a video series by someone ( Reviews by Wave Theory ) who claims to be a Scientist with dual PhD in Physics and STEM. Each video is fairly long and his 4 videos released putting forward his argument are over 140 min in total. If anyone here has watched his videos on the subject...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Looks like others, who are plausibly credible, have also heard differences.

 

[Jimbob54]

Cable argument put forward by a scientist

I stumbled on a video series by someone ( Reviews by Wave Theory ) who claims to be a Scientist with dual PhD in Physics and STEM. Each video is fairly long and his 4 videos released putting forward his argument are over 140 min in total. If anyone here has watched his videos on the subject...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Looks like others, who are plausibly credible, have heard similar differences.

Rule out imprecise level matching and wonky impedance then compare again. Don't look for external support for an observation unless you've ruled out the likely explanations.

 

[Astoneroad]

Cable argument put forward by a scientist

I stumbled on a video series by someone ( Reviews by Wave Theory ) who claims to be a Scientist with dual PhD in Physics and STEM. Each video is fairly long and his 4 videos released putting forward his argument are over 140 min in total. If anyone here has watched his videos on the subject...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Looks like others, who are plausibly credible, have heard similar differences.

If you read the responses from Amir, Voodooless and the rest of the actually credible engineers, I don't think that you'd use that to support your position.

 

[Newman]

Adjust the levels with a voltmeter on the output of the cables.

Do the listening test blind.

If you can pass that test, then one of the cables is a tone control and unable to match the transparency of a cheap wire cable. Throw that one away.

 

[GXAlan]

If you really want to know, you have to measure it. Take a look at all of my data.

You first need to test your headphone amp electrically. You assume that the balanced and unbalanced are similar except for volume, but when Amir tested his, he got much better SINAD out of the unbalanced output.

TempoTec Sonata BHD Pro Portable DAC & Amp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the TempoTec Sonata BHD Pro portable DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $70. I really like the fresh look of the BHD. There is a red LED that lights up the tiny ICs in there, giving it some elegance. There...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You never know if your copy or your setup is worse or not since it’s USB powered.

Note, that it seems that the common response on these kinds of posts are to jump on unblinded bias, but it is interesting that the unbalanced sounds better, you thought balanced would sound better, and the measurements suggest that the two outputs are different. This is where ASR membership fails on responding to posts about subjective differences. Instead of starting by debunking, start by figuring what we know about the OP’s test environment.

Both of these SINAD numbers should be transparent, but you are not listening to a 1 kHz test tone at 0 dBFS.

This is where if you measured your own DAC specifically with the music you listen to, you can then do a null comparison.

NEXT, your IEMs are 16 ohms.

While the SINAD is better on unbalanced, notice how you have worse SINAD with unbalanced from 1 mW to 79 mW and better SINAD at even lower volumes.

This is a bit like a subtle version of my 300B SET measurements. You don’t hear distortion as distortion but as volume. If high power has a jump, it may provide an inverted loudness feature where loud sounds are even louder. This may make the unbalanced output sound better.

So it’s weird, on the power vs distortion, unbalanced is worse. On the single 1 kHz SINAD, unbalanced is better

I don’t think it’s sighted bias. But you won’t really know until you start measuring with the music that you hear the big differences on. After electrical measurement, you’d want to use something like the EARS mic to measure the acoustic difference.

It seems like a waste of money to spend so much on test gear, but at least for me, it got me to my end game.

Edit: Amir tested the “Pro” version of the TempoTec. Yours might be different and have even bigger differences between the two?

 

[OK1]

If you read the responses from Amir, Voodooless and the rest of the actually credible engineers, I don't think that you'd use that to support your position.

View attachment 408859

I'll remain open to learning about the many viewpoints, on the subject. I think the truth may lie somewhere in between the various points of view.

The one issue which comes to mind is the current theory about the scope of human hearing. e.g, there is no point listening at higher sample rates like 96khz. But almost every DAC out there bought by the kinds of people who spend time on this forum, can playback 192Khz, and typically twice that, and a few are capable of 700+ Khz. So why bother.

Sure I understand about filtering, and aliasing.

We do not know what we do not know, and I think my own personal experience on this cable, has changed how I view the world. I've always been one to be a stickler for explanations, and following the science, and still will, as much as I can, but from now on, I'll keep an open mind, there may be things we do not fully understand yet.

Having heard what I heard, and am still hearing. i.e the difference, there has to be an explanation, even if we do not know what it is, this explanation. Assuming we know everything, is probably where the danger lies.

Of course I will NOT be spending hundreds of dollars on exotic cables, but I think I'm open to spending a small sum on a few different types of affordable cables, to examine this issue further. Considering purchasing a few more cables, that will pair well with my IEM's (0.78mm pin, and KZ QDC 0.75mm). 2 more of each (balanced and unbalanced), should cost no more than about $15 total for the 4 cables. No harm in such a small investment. Worst case, I discover nothing new. Or maybe I discover something that adds to my education on listening gear. We'll see.