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I'd not ask this on any other forum....cables....

Discussion in 'Analog Audio Forum (amplifiers, cables, etc.)' started by Murrayp, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. Frank Dernie

    Frank Dernie Active Member

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    Well I do much prefer + and - to flow and return or send and return myself fwiw. I know what you mean about ground, but most hifi is single ended so one side of the signal is normally "grounded". I have kit where there are switches to connect signal "ground" to chassis "ground" or to separate them. But I am old and used to the old terminology.
     
  2. Speedskater

    Speedskater Active Member

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    Yes but 'ground' has so many meaning (and so many more incorrect meaning) it's had to tell just what a person is writing about.

    Some frequent meanings:
    a] Common reference point
    b] Mother earth
    c] Safety Ground/Protective Earth
    d] Chassis
    e] Shield
    f] DC power supply common
    g] Circuit common

    While most of these have continuity from one to another, each has it's own function.
     
  3. DonH56

    DonH56 Addicted to Fun and Learning Technical Expert

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    In the RF world there is the signal path and the return path. Lo be unto those that screw either of them up. Power uses line, neutral, and (safety) ground. Differential, sometimes called balanced, uses signal plus, signal minus, in-phase/out-of-phase, or whatever plus common-mode (which may or may not be ground potential) and shield (which usually is). Some may use hot and cold. Most use signal and ground. At least IME. In all cases it is critical to remember that current is a loop and signal and return/neutral/negative/ground are both important. Most of the time people know what "ground" is so that's what I tend to use.
     
  4. Speedskater

    Speedskater Active Member

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    I see so many audiophiles on so many forums using different meanings of the word 'ground' almost interchangeably.
     
  5. DonH56

    DonH56 Addicted to Fun and Learning Technical Expert

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    Oh, agree completely. Don't depend upon audiophiles for technically accurate definitions... ;) Look at the whole "balanced" vs. "differential" debate. Could give them an IEEE Standard to review but...

    Mother Earth = Gaia, yes? "Please Gaia, bless my interconnects, that they may provide sounds pleasing to me and to thee, yeah verily." :)
     
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  6. Speedskater

    Speedskater Active Member

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    I was thinking of the planet, while Gaia (Gaea) a Greek goddess is what the magic grounding boxes connect to.
     
  7. RayDunzl

    RayDunzl Major Contributor Central Scrutinizer

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    Is there a difference?

    (time passes)

    Ok, I looked. Yes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  8. Blumlein 88

    Blumlein 88 Major Contributor

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    Just go with balanced differential.

    There is the controversy with Gaia or Gaea however. Most recently it is the former rather than the latter. I blame that British climate scientist that told NASA when he worked for them they had no need to go to Mars looking for life. He could tell from here there was none. So far there actually is no solid evidence he was wrong. He popularized the Gaia spelling.
     
  9. Speedskater

    Speedskater Active Member

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    Balanced is just a carefully designed sub-set of differential.
     
  10. DonH56

    DonH56 Addicted to Fun and Learning Technical Expert

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    Yah, I saw that, but it's all Greek to me... :)
     
  11. DonH56

    DonH56 Addicted to Fun and Learning Technical Expert

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    Alas, no, and that is part of the problem. Some equipment manufacturers use the term balanced to describe a quasi-differential (if that) implementation that is single-ended but with an additional resistor (usually) from ground to signal return/minus/negative/whatever so looking into the driver the impedances are roughly the same ("balanced") but the circuit is not actually differential. This can be of some benefit but generally does not have the CMRR of a true differential design, nor even of a wellp-matched quasi-differential design (which often takes a single-ended driver and adds an active inverter stage to create the (-) output).

    Actually, I realized that your interpretation is OK, if emphasis is placed upon "carefully designed"...
     
  12. Reginald Addison

    Reginald Addison Member

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    I like cables because they are pretty.
    To that end I chose cables where the manufacturer admitted they bought bulk cable and dressed it up. They actually publishe LCR. My emphasis was also on RFI rejection. I hear differences in cables
    Rarely is the difference worth the money. The cables I wanted cost more than the money I spent on the cimponents I would connect them to.
    Disclaimer: I am an avid audiophile.
    Note: Random outcone means each outcome has the same probability. If there are 10 possible outcomes the chance of ŕandomly picking any number is the same.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  13. Sal1950

    Sal1950 Major Contributor The Chicago Crusher

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    On this I will give you temporary amnesty till you either change your affiliation or submit you for execution.
    Cheers
     
  14. Reginald Addison

    Reginald Addison Member

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    Amnesty is not temporary
    I think you meant -Stay.
     
  15. Sal1950

    Sal1950 Major Contributor The Chicago Crusher

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    That wasn't a good sign of capitulation. LOL
     
  16. amirm

    amirm Founder/Admin CFO (Chief Fun Officer) Staff Member

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    Sal doesn't know you are an attorney. I suggest suing him for not eating anything but American food! :D
     
  17. Sal1950

    Sal1950 Major Contributor The Chicago Crusher

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    You would need to provide supportable evidence to that fact, a position you would find impossible to introduce. ;)
     
  18. Reginald Addison

    Reginald Addison Member

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    There are examples where differences in cables were found.
     
  19. RayDunzl

    RayDunzl Major Contributor Central Scrutinizer

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    Well, there are price differences...

    And differences in LCR (which is not necessarily expensive to produce)...

    What else?
     
  20. Sal1950

    Sal1950 Major Contributor The Chicago Crusher

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    Well there are also things like the Audioquest HDMI cable hoax. A video that showed supportable evidence that their expensive cables
    were worth the scaled high prices with improved performance as you climbed the pricing ladder,
    Of course it was proven to be a hoax and immediately taken down and responsibility denied by the bosses.
    http://www.audioholics.com/editorials/mark-waldrep-audioquest-open-letter-editorial
    http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5540
    Amir also measured and caught the con, I just can't find the link right now.
     

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