I will NEVER buy a neutral speaker again!

[mhardy6647]

But just anecdotally, in my case, I’ve never adapted to a speaker that I didn’t like almost immediately. Whatever causes that fairly immediate impression it seems to be pretty sticky.

ain't it the truth?
Some of my lifelong loudspeaker loves (ahem) made intense first impressions on me. Quad ESL-57, Altec Duplex (specifically, a pair of unbaffled 604C coaxes with Altec's XOs), and the original Polk "Monitor Series" (specifically, the Model 10 -- although I rapidly came to prefer their smaller sibling, the Model 7) fairly leap to mind.

EDIT: Conversely (upon reflection), I didn't like the ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 out of the box. After two years of fiddlin' and diddlin' with them, I sold them (and I don't sell much). I spent a decade with a pair of 1974 vintage Klipsch Cornwalls. They did a couple of things right, but I could never get past their harshness and shrillness and really enjoy them (save with a relative handful of appropriately empathetic recordings). Acquiring a nice pair of "A" series (16 ohm) Altec Valencias threw the Cornies' shortcomings into such sharp relief, I sold them (the Cornies, that is) posthaste.

 

[MattHooper]

I have not tried magnetic, but I have tried isolators to decouple. I am currently using Sorbothane and I have carefully matched those to the weight on them for each unit. They have some measurable benefit above the bass region. Not huge, but measurable.

Try spring- based footers. It’s a whole different ball game of decoupling versus any material you will find. I did tons of measuring, with a vibrometer app, all sorts of materials and combinations, including sorbothane, and nothing compared to Springs for decoupling.
My speakers are on a very springy wood floor, and I could very easily feel the vibrations on the floor around the speakers and rumbling right to my sofa that I could feel under me. When I put the spring footers under my speakers that completely disappeared with fascinating effects on the sound.

Although later went to more elaborate Springs, I started with these ones which are cheap to experiment with:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08DFHS7QT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

FWIW here’s my thread on springs under my speakers:

Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

(Sorry I don't have speaker measuring equipment to post data. For now I just have to say "this is what I heard...any explanation"?) I recently tried a "tweak" for footers under my speakers that has had fascinating results. And I'm wondering about the explanation. I've never been big on...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Purité Audio]

Springs on their own don’t actually de-couple.
Keith

 

[Bob from Florida]

Springs on their own don’t actually de-couple.
Keith

I can see springs reflecting the vibrations back into the cabinet.

 

[MattHooper]

Springs on their own don’t actually de-couple.
Keith

What is your definition of “decouple?”

In this context, "decoupling" refers to isolating or reducing the transmission of vibrations from one object to another.

And this absolutely measurably occurs.
I used springs under my turntable platform to stop the transmission of floor born footsteps to the turntable. They were stopped virtually dead (measurably).
I similarly measured obvious decoupling between my floor and speakers as well using springs.

 

[robh36062]

Well if don't think springs decouple try driving your car if you can imagine without them. They are not perfect but they certainly help,

Rob

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Have you the plots which demonstrate the addition of the floor?

I plan to go to separate L/R eq in the next two weeks. I could shoot some white noise at 2.5db increments over a 20-25db range, and that will show how things change. That's a quick measure for me. Would that work for what you are asking for? Some sweeps too, but likely not 8-10, since they are much more stable over volume.

If the "floor modes" show up everywhere in the room at equal strength, would that tell you something? I can likely get some measures on that.

I do have two years of measures in this room, but that kind of series measurement is something I would have trouble finding, and would not be recent. It's better to do it all at once so comparisons will be valid.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Well if don't think springs decouple try driving your car if you can imagine without them.

Try to imagine driving on springs with no damping from shocks/struts.

 

[MattHooper]

Try to imagine driving on springs with no damping from shocks/struts.

Is that a “no” on trying Springs?

 

[Purité Audio]

Spring in a gasket perhaps.
Keith

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Is that a “no” on trying Springs?

Do you have a recommended brand? I am open to trying things especially inexpensive ones.

But I have my doubts that $20 will buy me a magic bullet for my situation. Most seem to be just springs, do any have any damping mechanism? Does the spring compress enough to rub the sides of the feet when compressed into the holes they rest in, which is the only damping I can see might be in play in most models?

Do you know any that list the spring constant? I'd like to know the resonant frequency of a spring in my situation.

 

[MattHooper]

Do you have a recommended brand? I am open to trying things especially inexpensive ones.

But I have my doubts that $20 will buy me a magic bullet for my situation. Most seem to be just springs, do any have any damping mechanism? Does the spring compress enough to rub the sides of the feet when compressed into the holes they rest in, which is the only damping I can see might be in play in most models?

Do you know any that list the spring constant? I'd like to know the resonant frequency of a spring in my situation.

I gave you an Amazon link to the ones I used.
There are plenty of similar ones on Amazon.

I’m not saying those particular feet will be the perfect solution: just that they are cheap if you want to play around to see the effects of Spring versus other forms of isolation. It’s quite eye-opening. And from there, you could decide whether you want to move forward with some other types of springs that are more calibrated to your needs.

I moved on from those springs to a very expensive solution, Townsend isolation bars:

Seismic Isolation Bars for speakers / sub-woofer - Townshend

Seismic Isolation Bars are designed to break the acoustic connection between the speakers and the floor, thus preventing the passage of unwanted vibration between the two. Used in pairs under any speaker, be it floor standing, stand-mounted or sub-woofers. Because of the very compliant nature of...

www.townshendaudio.com

I’m quite sure they are more expensive than you want to start with. But they are calibrated for the weight of speakers and made especially for this application.

In the end, while those generally worked as advertised, I actually preferred my speakers somewhat coupled to my floor. I like to feel the base more.

 

[Waxx]

If you can't fix your floor, the easiest way to fix it a bit is using a heavy(weight) carpet that damps the floor by adding some weight to it. I did that when i was living in a very old beaten up home in my early 20's (i had no money) and it reduces that effect of ratling floorboards.. Springs may also help, but are harder to do.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I gave you an Amazon link to the ones I used.
There are plenty of similar ones on Amazon.

They were out of stock, but I did look at others with a similar design. I've seen them before, but I looked again.

Townsend isolation bars:

Those look interesting. Sure, 10x the price, but interesting. I will look more into those. My fear is my floor motion is at least an order of magnitude larger than anything is designed for.

I think I will do some testing with an accelerometer on my floor first. The level of movement might be beyond the design specs, but at least that would give me a way to ask, and Townsend is likely to be able to give me some answers. People selling $20 springs, likely no answers to such questions.

Thanks for the ideas!

 

[Salt]

Springs alone don't work as they have a resonance frequency, and that's why they must be combined with a damping module (to convert movement into heat).

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

f you can't fix your floor, the easiest way to fix it a bit is using a heavy(weight) carpet that damps the floor by adding some weight to it.

We have a 13x10 wool rug down, and early on I put a thick wool felt pad under it. I think it was 1", might have been 3/4". It helped a lot.

Sitting in the triangle position puts me in an area of clear floor, which also helps pin things down.

 

[robh36062]

Try to imagine driving on springs with no damping from shocks/struts.

Agree not fun with one or none but either better than nothing!

Rob

 

[robh36062]

Springs alone don't work as they have a resonance frequency, and that's why they must be combined with a damping module (to convert movement into heat).

Depends on where the resonance is. If it's out of band they it doesn't matter as much. My Garrard 301 has springs and couple of other ones I have owned have used them as well in their feet. If it helps on a turntable?

Rob

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I plan to go to separate L/R eq in the next two weeks. I could shoot some white noise...

So did a lot of measures yesterday. Realized I had a door open I wanted closed. Remeasured. Found out one of my speaker cables was half out. Quit. Came back, remeasured. L/R PEQ worse than Single PEQ. Realized in all the toe moves lately, one of my speakers ended up 1.5" too far forward and 1" too close to the side wall. Tape measure.

Things went well today. But you don't get as many measures as planned.

First, white noise at 70db and a sweep at the same system volume. White noise smoothed 1/12, sweep 1/24, just to show the pattern before the next measurement set.

Speakers roll off starting at 40hz, the dip just north of 40hz is from the measurement position.

So... Looks the same except with a well planned room gain. I did think long and hard about these speakers for my room.


Ok, now for white noise at 60db, 65, 70, and 75, 1/24 smoothing (enough to show things and be legible). 60db yellow, 65 green, 70 red, 75 blue. Tight on 20-200.

Start by looking at the peak at around 72hz, that's a pure room mode, nothing the floor does to it.

Next look at the peak at 30hz and the dip at 44hz. At 30hz, bimodal at 60db, green super peak as the floor kicks in at 65db, then pulled back down at 70db, then back to bimodal at 75db.

At 60db, room modes are not yet in full force, but the floor is bouncing a bit. At 65db the floor is bouncing (pulls towards 30), at 70db the room mode is kicked in strongly, pulling things back towards that 32hz or so room mode. Why is the peak lower? Because other floor frequencies suck up some energy at that point, draining 30hz a bit (look at what 120 hz does). At 75db the floor and room mode are back in balance. Above this SPL, 30hz will continue to spike relative to 32hz and grow quickly.

For 44hz, note the peak pop up at 75db. I don't know how that can happen if it is not floor related. Room mode pulls down 44hz at 65-70db, floor mode spikes up at 75db.

Next, look around 120hz. One peak, bimodal, one, bimodal. That's another indication of a floor mode and room mode interacting. Note that the two bimodal peaks are the ones for measures with the highest SPL at 30hz.

At higher spl, up from the 75db measure, the peak just above 50hz will slide up to 60hz, and then 60hz will spike up, at which point 30hz will be way up, as will all sorts of things 80-125, depending on specific volume. 80hz-125hz shows a lot of odd shifts. But 30-60-120 definitely show floor effects, and at +5db over the highest on the graphs shown I'll get a 95 peak. Likely 90hz floor and 100hz heating ducts.

Lots of odd things happen in this range, so if I went with different cut points for my 5db jumps, we might see some other things happen. If I ditched the smoothing or went 1/48 we could see lots more happen, but it would be very hard to read. I think this series does show HOW the floor and room modes interact in a few places, so, I think it should help show what happens in my very lively room.

Oh, I did move the mic to see how 30hz acted through the room. Hand held, poor measures, but I was thinking that 30hz is pretty stable, 32hz is not, and then my cat shut down REW before I saved anything. Yes, yesterday was a cursed day for measuring in this house, that's for sure.

So, I have floor modes from a bouncy floor that are close to room modes, and they interact in complex ways at different volumes. Or so I see it.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Wiim finally let me save a L/R peq that stuck. So let me wrap this up.

Interestingly, REW's eq wizard REALLY wanted to low shelf one of my speakers -2.4 dB at 100hz. Not the one by the exterior wall, but the one closer to the midline of the house. So bouncier, and that speaker does take a bit of a walk of 2" over 3-4 weeks time in the current position. That's a simple fix though, to stop that slow walk. It might be walking when the stands are empty, caused by the AV speakers, now that I think of it.

The low shelf turned out the be a very, very bad idea. I am not sure why, but it created what looked like phase issues (RTA, so no phase measurements).

These are sweeps from Amazon tracks (analog bunker samples), through the Wiim, into RTA so I can measure what eq does. No EQ is in red, obviously. Couch position, so the more difficult spot to correct things compared to triangle.

The 20-200 measurements track with REW sweeps 20-200.

The full range AV mains sweep (it rolls off) tracks with REW sweeps above 200hz. It also activates the floor pretty well when it rolls down to 20 and then back up. Not to white noise levels, but close for 60hz and below. 1/6 smoothing since that is what I use for my EQ targets.

No PEQ is set below 70hz. If this was for summer/windows open/higher volume I would try to use something on the 30hz spike. For winter/closed house/lower volume I can get away without it.

White noise would probably give me effectively flat to 20hz with the 30hz spike at some level slightly higher as the room null at 40hz gets filled in with floor sound (which I say having used these sweeps a lot). Maybe needs another +1.5db to get there, but it's close.

With stereo PEQ, I could get +/- 4db, with some rough patches with big swings (limited to 10 PEQs in wiim.) With L/R PEQs thing are pretty smooth in comparison. I might try to bring that dip in the mids up a bit, but that's a very, very difficult area to eq. Half a dB more boost to the current setting, things near there start to get wonky.

I actually like my room in a lot of ways. Low level, sounds great, thanks V shaped room sound! But it is challenging to EQ due to how it confuses REW at times into thinking my floor modes are room modes, and the limited volume effectiveness of any given EQ settting. And I sure wish my room issues did not extend to 1k!

It's been fun to figure things out. Frustrating at times, since this is the ONE issue where I found ASR did not point me in a good direction via searches. I do understand why that is, odd room, way outside most people's experience, that's for sure.