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I think i am a fool connecting headphones directly to my dac

alkis 797

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So i have this topping D10 DAC and ATH-WS1100
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mpPOdNH3-7bAezoYhzbIUgaj56qde4Xf/view?usp=sharing

well at the time i thought that buying this little bear p2 would be a "cool" choice
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1blj9K3IIlS4GZ4NsnuK-w1MLZu3snuua/view?usp=sharing

but then i realized this was a horrible mistake... the sound through the little bear crops when my D10 is at max volume from windows.... it settles at 60% (windows volume) and then when i turn up the volume from the little bear there is a lot of white noise so ... i am not happy at all !
Apart from that i cant hear the "difference of tubes".... and after a bit of searching i found that this tube amp is only for looks

[also the tubes picked a lot of interference from my multi socket
(that had 12 devices and my computer connected to it, so i had it plugged by it self to my wall)
and my phone]

Is it worth it to upgrade the little bear with the muses02f amp chip to reduce the white noise or buy some better tubes can you recommend any ?

any way now i am searching for an amp

i am thinking for something like the SMSL Audio Sap-II or FiiO K5
and my second choice is to sell the D10 and buy the topping DX3Pro

now while i don't have a proper amp i have connected my headphones directly to the d10 with this cable and they sound superb to my ears ...
do i really need an amp? since the d10 has an OP amp inside

https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/img_c...?auto=format&fm=jpg&fit=max&w=796&h=425&dpr=1

can you please advise me on the amp choice (max 150 euro)
and inform me of the DAC to headphones thing ?

thank you for reading all this <3
 
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THW

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Based on what I’m reading, the Atom from JDS Labs seems to suit your needs
 

svart-hvitt

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For sure you don't want to hook up a headphone to a DAC. As THW says, best and greatest option right now is the JDS Labs Atom headphone amplifier.

Why not use DAC to drive headphones, if DAC has say 0 Ohm impedance and 17V output level, as some DACs have?
 

amirm

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Why not use DAC to drive headphones, if DAC has say 0 Ohm impedance and 17V output level, as some DACs have?
I have not seen dacs with zero output impedance. The exception are the DACs which have headphone amps and route that output to line out. In that case again there is no reason to use the line out when you have the headphone output.
 

svart-hvitt

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I have not seen dacs with zero output impedance. The exception are the DACs which have headphone amps and route that output to line out. In that case again there is no reason to use the line out when you have the headphone output.

Weiss has such a DAC. But it has no headphone out.
 

amirm

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Weiss has such a DAC. But it has no headphone out.
Which model? Just looked at the first one on their site and it says this:

1543820156440.png


There is no good reason to build one with zero output impedance and dc out. You would then need protection circuits and such.
 

svart-hvitt

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Which model? Just looked at the first one on their site and it says this:

View attachment 18337

There is no good reason to build one with zero output impedance and dc out. You would then need protection circuits and such.

Weiss: «The DAC1-MK2 version has a 0 – Ohm output impedance and up to 17V output level. The output level is adjustable with the trim potentiometers on the faceplate. The range goes way down to no output at all. So this unit can drive any headphone basically. The output power can be several Watts of class A performance.

The DAC1-MK3 has about < 100 Ohm output impedance and the level is adjustable between 0.5V and 17V in 1 dB steps. So this unit can also drive most headphones».

The Weiss gear seems to be extremely well built. No wonder the pro gear is popular despite a high price.
 

amirm

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Weiss: «The DAC1-MK2 version has a 0 – Ohm output impedance and up to 17V output level.
That is a power amplifier then, not a normal line-out in a DAC. Just because they stuck it in a DAC doesn't make it normal or remotely typical. As I said, there are dac+headphone amp combos that have the same thing.

The DAC1-MK3 has about < 100 Ohm output impedance and the level is adjustable between 0.5V and 17V in 1 dB steps. So this unit can also drive most headphones».
100 ohm output impedance is way too high to drive headphones. It doesn't matter how much voltage it has: it will cause the frequency response of most headphones to change.
 

RayDunzl

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RayDunzl

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andymok

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seems Swiss has quite a few top-notch audio company in the country. 2 of which work very closely to DSD already, why's that @@?
 

solderdude

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Weiss: «The DAC1-MK2 version has a 0 – Ohm output impedance and up to 17V output level. The output level is adjustable with the trim potentiometers on the faceplate. The range goes way down to no output at all. So this unit can drive any headphone basically. The output power can be several Watts of class A performance.

The DAC1-MK3 has about < 100 Ohm output impedance and the level is adjustable between 0.5V and 17V in 1 dB steps. So this unit can also drive most headphones».

The output current of the mk2 is limited to 200mA.
1.3W into 32 Ohm, 2W into 50 Ohm, 2.4W into 300 Ohm balanced.
0.3W into 32 Ohm, 0.5W into 50 Ohm, 0.6W into 300 Ohm via RCA out.

The mk3 version is a bit strange as it says < 100 Ohm.
In the documentation they state near 0 Ohm but in the spec sheet itself they state <100 Ohm ... well .. near 0 Ohm is below 100 Ohm.
It is weird why they would use the same output stage as in the mk2 but add extra output resistors.
Certainly when the output stages are designed to be able to deliver 200mA of current.

In the spec. sheet of their output stage they do recommend to use a series resistor > 30 Ohm to cater for unlimited capacitive loads.
maybe the mk3 has those resistors in there for that reason.

In the P2 the tubes are not just for looks. They are the actual voltage gain stage and do the amplification. The opamps are unity gain output stages and provide the output current.
When you use it without tubes there will probably be no sound.
But no, it isn't a high quality amp. The 22 Ohm output Resistance also does not help.
Changing the output devices (opamps) will make no difference.
The noise can come from the tubes or other components, from the power supply even or the tubes picking up RF noise.
I would recommend to simply buy a better amp as suggested by other members above when the price must not be high.

The D10 has 100 Ohm output resistance which is a bit on the high side but some headphones actually sound better/more pleasant on a higher output resistance others may sound horrible and some don't react at all.
 
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svart-hvitt

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That is a power amplifier then, not a normal line-out in a DAC. Just because they stuck it in a DAC doesn't make it normal or remotely typical. As I said, there are dac+headphone amp combos that have the same thing.


100 ohm output impedance is way too high to drive headphones. It doesn't matter how much voltage it has: it will cause the frequency response of most headphones to change.

Yes, the Weiss DAC is a bit more elaborate and versatile than consumer gear. It seems most gear that is tested here is cheap consumer gear, many times from small shops in China.

There is a lack of serious pro gear exposure here, which may lead to a bias afterwards?

Though I understand that it costs more to get hold of serious pro gear.
 
OP
A

alkis 797

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Thank you solderdude for explaining all this and i also thank you all for your answers

The D10 has 100 Ohm output resistance which is a bit on the high side but some headphones actually sound better/more pleasant on a higher output resistance others may sound horrible and some don't react at all.

Well I've been using my ATH-WS1100 headphones straight through the DAC for a week, did i damage them ?

Connecting them like that just gives you "different" sound than the one you should be hearing if you had an amp?
Or it damages your hardware and makes it to permanently lose its sound signature ?

can i use them like that till my new amp arrives ?

in that end... I very much like Atom from JDS but i live in Greece and shipping from JDS is like 40$ i watched z's review on this amp and he compared it to the Monolith Liquid Spark that cost to me almost half the price including shipping so i have some thinking to do...

well in an ideal world i would love an
All in one Amp with EQ (like this one https://www.jdslabs.com/products/187/subjective3-equalizer/ )
+ mixing of 2 inputs for listening to my Microphone

Excuse me for all this i am a student my budget is limited and I'm just starting to appreciate the world of music!
 

restorer-john

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100 ohm output impedance is way too high to drive headphones. It doesn't matter how much voltage it has: it will cause the frequency response of most headphones to change.

Amir, 100 Ohms is not 'way too high to drive headphones'. FR variations are an issue with wildly varying impedance curves, and headphones (on the whole) are very benign aren't they? Let's be honest, most are really easy to drive and even calling them a 'load' is pretty funny.

You want low output impedance? Hook your cans up to a real power amplifier and enjoy the massive voltage swing and total driver control...

This crazy obsession with low output impedance and large available voltage swings on headphone stages is very dangerous to people's hearing. I think I'm going into the hearing aid business. :)
 
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solderdude

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Well I've been using my ATH-WS1100 headphones straight through the DAC for a week, did i damage them ?

Nope.

Connecting them like that just gives you "different" sound than the one you should be hearing if you had an amp?
Or it damages your hardware and makes it to permanently lose its sound signature ?

The sound may be different but doesn't have to be, can only say so with certainty when I measured it or saw the impedance plot.
Nothing will be damaged.

can i use them like that till my new amp arrives ?

Yes, no problem.
 
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A

alkis 797

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Nope.



The sound may be different but doesn't have to be, can only say so with certainty when I measured it or saw the impedance plot.
Nothing will be damaged.



Yes, no problem.

Thank you Kowalski for the Analysis and for taking the time :)
 
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