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I swapped Ls50 for an R3 meta ….im I imagining

Yeah I know, it could be due to my poor understanding of audio matters, or to my room, but seeing that many people have what seems to be a very similar feeling on the question, make me think that it has enought probability to be a real "thing".

Also I mostly listen quite near field, I'd say 2-2.5 meter from the speakers.

Of course I tried different placements but mostly putting them far or close to the wall (up to 1 meter away). It does change the overall sound but not that much to me.

That is important. I had the Reference 1 for some time, but I simply preferred the LS50 + 1 sub in my room. The Reference 1s are awesome but they are basically "compact floor standers" - no need for a sub as far as I am concerned (FX aficionados free to disagree :-D). But that also means on can't optimize bass delivery by moving a sub around to best integrate into the room. No such issues with the LS50 and a separate sub.
 
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Thank you for explaining your impressions of the LS50 Meta vs the R3.

The design of the baffle on the LS50 looks like it will perform much better than the R3's baffle with regard to mitigating diffraction. That probably is why the LS50 images better.

To get the best of both worlds, I would like to see KEF produce a stand-mount speaker using the LS50 baffle design for the concentric driver, and two side-firing woofers. It would be like a stand-mount version of the LS60.
my experience is the other way. Have listened to ls50 meta and r3. Both speakers image the same way. There is no advantage LS50 offers in imaging compared to R3. However both has difference in radiation pattern which means to have the best imaging on them, it might not work at the same spot in the room or same angle one using for listening
 
I wasn't suggesting you wired it wrong, rather that the factory may have wired the top drivers backwards in one of the speakers.
I found this exact issue on a set of new flagship towers (3 way). When I received them there was no imaging like I heard when I auditioned them. Sound was stuck to the panels. Thankfully, the crossovers were external. Began testing and found one midrange driver was wired out of phase inside the crossover. Once corrected everything snapped back. Don't rule out QC issues.
Harvey
 
Can I check that on the R3?

Don't get me wrong, imaging is good, some music sound incredible (jazz, atmospheric music, electronic music, classical music...), but I don't have the same feeling of the sound floating in the air than with the Ls50s. Some instruments are much better to me in the R3, like percussion, bass guitar, the R3 seems to have 0 resonnance in the cab on drums, where ls50 non meta while sounding good have some weird things going.

Also the vocals are quite laid back in some tracks in the R3 meta, far less audible in HT. On movies some subtle effects on the ls50 are so precise that I could feel them in my room (rain, wind, ...), even at fair low volume.

I did some more placement experiences today as advised, I put them up to 1.5 meter from wall and in the middle of the wall (9x6 meter room), with different distances from eatch other, testing different sides of the room, I found some spots where they disapear more, it's quite encouraging. I feel that the room could be responsible of much of the "problem", and that the LS50 could acomodate more with that. I also have a room mode at 100hz (+13 db) "corrected" via audissey.

More testing tomorrow ...

I'm also going to read about some basic room correction, mainly to limit upper mids/ high reflections to main listening position.
 
Can I check that on the R3?

Don't get me wrong, imaging is good, some music sound incredible (jazz, atmospheric music, electronic music, classical music...), but I don't have the same feeling of the sound floating in the air than with the Ls50s. Some instruments are much better to me in the R3, like percussion, bass guitar, the R3 seems to have 0 resonnance in the cab on drums, where ls50 non meta while sounding good have some weird things going.

Also the vocals are quite laid back in some tracks in the R3 meta, far less audible in HT. On movies some subtle effects on the ls50 are so precise that I could feel them in my room (rain, wind, ...), even at fair low volume.

I did some more placement experiences today as advised, I put them up to 1.5 meter from wall and in the middle of the wall (9x6 meter room), with different distances from eatch other, testing different sides of the room, I found some spots where they disapear more, it's quite encouraging. I feel that the room could be responsible of much of the "problem", and that the LS50 could acomodate more with that. I also have a room mode at 100hz (+13 db) "corrected" via audissey.

More testing tomorrow ...

I'm also going to read about some basic room correction, mainly to limit upper mids/ high reflections to main listening position.
R3 is a more even speaker than ls50. So if you are hearing more things on ls50, ls50 is exaggerating those things
 
I have some ls50 meta’s in my office and the imaging is excellent may a bit to excellent at time if you know what I mean. The R3s work better in a larger room, as others have said more balanced and still great imaging.
 
Interesting thread. I have the R3 Meta and when I chose them I had the doubt with the LS50 Meta. Since I could not compare them in a valid way (same room, same FR) I decided to opt for the R3M for the simple fact that they managed more power (my room is about 100 cubic meters with about 3.5 meters between LP and speakers).
I read several comments where it is assumed that the LS50M take advantage in imaging for the shape of the cabinet, which implies fewer diffraction problems.
It is a theoretically valid assumption in my opinion, since the most affected frequencies by diffraction are the mids.
In the KEF LS50M white paper they actually talk about this, however no measurement is shown.
Could anyone suggest how to measure this effect? (aside from the need for an anechoic chamber)
Being a kind of mini echo I suppose the impulse response could show it, placing the microphone close enough to the driver.
However, to see it in the form of FFT I fear that it is difficult to correctly size the window to include the effect or not and make a comparison.
Apart from that, I honestly believe that the differences between R3 and LS50 are many and it is not possible to attribute auditory differences to a single factor rather than another. Also because it would be difficult to make a truly valid auditory comparison test (i.e. excluding all the variables of positioning, level, memory, bias, etc.).
In any case, I am convinced that once placed in the exact same position and equalized in FR and SPL they sound almost indistinguishable (bass apart).
Below is the estimated response in the room for both, with equalization.
1000026733.png

That difference around 1-2kHz and 0.5-0.6kHz could be better equalized I think. The difference in dispersion will remain obviously and I would bet more on that for a possible hearing difference than only on the diffraction of the cabinet.
Unless the difference in dispersion is mostly an effect of the cabinet itself and therefore of the diffraction.
What do you think?
 
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In the KEF LS50M white paper they actually talk about this, however no measurement is shown.
Could anyone suggest how to measure this effect? (aside from the need for an anechoic chamber)
See here:
 
See here:
Do you mean that the window response minus the average of the sound diffused in each direction is representative of the diffraction alone?
 
Did some other comparisons and testing today.

I gave them a little more toe in, spaced 60cm from wall. Got them a bit closer from each other (2 meters, sitting position also about 2 meters).

Audissey on the Denon x2800H correcting only up to 500 hz with phone app. Before that I also tried some other sub placements, redone calibration tests.

Dialogue clarity isn't crazy, voices still have a bit of sibilance (sibiliance is very high if I let Audissey EQ full range) but music is very good in stereo and in 5.1 I get back most of the clarity with center channel.

Also I pushed the shadowflare to align to the baffle (they were about 1mm above). Could'nt say if it changed anything audible.

Overall things are greatly improved.

I think that when I gave up with placement some monthes ago I left the speakers with very average positionning, the same that I had with the LS50 that maybe acommodated better off axis.

Thanks everyone that's so useful to have many different and critical advices here, much time gained not testing useless stuff ...
 
The klippel only test one speaker and give no valid results what happens inside a brain with a stereo setup.
The stereo image illusion is created inside the brain - it cant be measured.

Easy, A+B=C

Nobody is actually trying to measure inside of a brain. You have two objective cases of signal integrity, when considered as one, will derive your final answer.
 
Room probably yes. Ls50 has very low amount of bass. It let’s you listen to the rest of the spectrum easily
Yes the LS50 is best matched with a decent sub. This is the configuration I use and near field results are excellent. In a bigger room I would go for the R3Ms.
 
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