I replaced my AVR with a Flex HT, but don't recommend it.

[peng]

Thank you Peng!

First of all would like to say that i feel that my english isnt good enough to give you a answer on the same level as your post.

No problem for me to understand what you wrote.

But anyway i got a bit intrigued to play around with it som more before i write Audyssey off.

Happy to know you are going to give it another go before writing it off.

I think i will give Ratbiddyssey i chance because it seems easier to applie housecurve than in the app. It took me quite a few attempts to get the curve to where i wanted.

Absolutely, in the thread I linked earlier, I showed an example of what you can do to the target curve, not one that I would necessarily use, but it shows what can be done with Ratbuddyssey, that one cannot do with fingers or touch pens:

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips)

I was conflicted whether or not to post this here, but in the end decided it made sense to start a new thread and link it so anyone reading this thread would know it was available. https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/accueq-reviewed-by-amir-at-audiosciencereview.118042/

forums.audioholics.com

Subwoofer target curve and front speakers curve:

I watched som videos on YouTube with Audyssey and third party scripts, and som of them seemed quite complicated and time consuming especially if you would want to change things around fast and try things out. But i will give Ratbuddyssey i try. In the Audyssey app it was quite swift process to make changes and upload to receiver besides making my houscurve the way i wanted it.

Exactly, with Ratbuddssey, you can have a lot many filters as you can see in the resulting target curves above. To me, it is better than entering real PEQs with frequency, gain and Q, and I am quite sure (not 100% sure but maybe 90% sure), the $200 App is actually implementing the imported REW BIQUADs the same way, the difference is just that with that more expensive app, people who are used to BIQUADs will feel better as they can pretend there are in fact using BIQUADs with Audyssey.

In Dirac its recommended to use the same curve for all speakers i remember, is it the same in Audyssey?

They recommended it, but you can, and I did, ignore it, once you get comfortable with the software. Edit: For clarity, I believe the target curves should be the same but the EQ/Correction maybe different, so when tweaking for smoother/flatter/or intentionally tilted response, the target curves could, or would be different for each speaker, for example, the tweaked target curve for say FL, and FR maybe different, but if you measure the FR with REW, they may be very similar, more similar than if you use the exact same target curve for them.

In other words, I think it is good to tweak speakers separately and that would naturally result in different target curves; and in theory that should be better than tweaking, that is, using the curves in pairs. That said, my comments are based on measured results, in terms of subjectively perceived sound quality, I think it might be a waste of time, as I couldn't say I heard better sound quality one way or the other.

 

[Genstruktur]

No problem for me to understand what you wrote.

Happy to know you are going to give it another go before writing it off.


Absolutely, in the thread I linked earlier, I showed an example of what you can do to the target curve, not one that I would necessarily use, but it shows what can be done with Ratbuddyssey, that one cannot do with fingers or touch pens:

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips)

I was conflicted whether or not to post this here, but in the end decided it made sense to start a new thread and link it so anyone reading this thread would know it was available. https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/accueq-reviewed-by-amir-at-audiosciencereview.118042/

forums.audioholics.com

Subwoofer target curve and front speakers curve:

View attachment 478861View attachment 478862



Exactly, with Ratbuddssey, you can have a lot many filters as you can see in the resulting target curves above. To me, it is better than entering real PEQs with frequency, gain and Q, and I am quite sure (not 100% sure but maybe 90% sure), the $200 App is actually implementing the imported REW BIQUADs the same way, the difference is just that with that more expensive app, people who are used to BIQUADs will feel better as they can pretend there are in fact using BIQUADs with Audyssey.



They recommended it, but you can, and I did, ignore it, once you get comfortable with the software. Edit: For clarity, I believe the target curves should be the same but the EQ/Correction maybe different, so when tweaking for smoother/flatter/or intentionally tilted response, the target curves could, or would be different for each speaker, for example, the tweaked target curve for say FL, and FR maybe different, but if you measure the FR with REW, they may be very similar, more similar than if you use the exact same target curve for them.

In other words, I think it is good to tweak speakers separately and that would naturally result in different target curves; and in theory that should be better than tweaking, that is, using the curves in pairs. That said, my comments are based on measured results, in terms of subjectively perceived sound quality, I think it might be a waste of time, as I couldn't say I heard better sound quality one way or the other.

I have played around a bit in Ratbuddysssey and also in the Audyssey online editor: https://audyssey.pages.dev/

I cant really notice a difference in what you are able to do? Besides in the online editor i can se my curve changing when i do adjustments but in Ratbuddyset you get no visual representation of what you are doing and have to load the file in the audyssey app to see if you are satisfied? Seems quite a hassle Ratbuddyssey? Or am i missing something? I had to download several realeses of Ratbudyssey before i managed to get one to work and it seems quite unstable and crashes sometimes.

I like the online editor more so far. Its easier in the online editor, than in the app, to make adustments. So thats one problem solved. But i somewhat miss that you cant put in Q (from REW for example) and manually have to make several target curve points to mimic the Q you want. I have to play around some more. Thank your for your help.

 

[danstahl]

I still am happy with my Flex HTx. It is getting me close (if not quite there...) to my dream of "programable audio". The DSP is relatively easy to use, and can be tweaked away from the device (with a RBPi connected to USB).

The downsides:

• There should be plenty of room for an internal power supply. Instead it has a bulky external power supply.
• No (direct) internet connectivity. Connecting a Raspberry Pi to it's USB works great, but it would be cleaner to go straight to the device.
• There is no way to turn on or off the device programmatically. It must be done via remote or physical touch. In practicality, this means I keep it on 24/7 and have to use my Raspberry Pi + a relay to trigger the 12v on my amp.

 

[peng]

I have played around a bit in Ratbuddysssey and also in the Audyssey online editor: https://audyssey.pages.dev/

I cant really notice a difference in what you are able to do? Besides in the online editor i can se my curve changing when i do adjustments but in Ratbuddyset you get no visual representation of what you are doing and have to load the file in the audyssey app to see if you are satisfied? Seems quite a hassle Ratbuddyssey? Or am i missing something? I had to download several realeses of Ratbudyssey before i managed to get one to work and it seems quite unstable and crashes sometimes.

With Ratbuddyssey, you won't see the actual curve changed, but you can easily imagine the changes. For example, if you enter a cut of 3 dB at 60 Hz, and 5 dB at 70 Hz, you can imagine it will show a dip in between 60 and 70 Hz, but yes, until you exported the saved Ady file into the MultEQ Editor app you won't see the new curve.

May be one of my first worked example in the thread I created in Audioholics would help you do a quick experiment, I assume you do use Excel right, but you don't have to use a spreadsheet, just that I find it easily to do when playing around with scenerios.

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips)

Did you try the procedure I posted? You should be able to flatten the curve within an hour. You should also aim for 75 dB instead of 85 because if that huge dip. I am sure the mini cannot do better than the app if you use Ratbuddyssey. Big thread, which post? I read everything in this...

forums.audioholics.com

Below was my first attempt in posting the steps I followed, it was very brief, if interested, in the later posts I have provided more detailed step, for better results:

1) Run Audyssey auto setup using the MultEQ Editor App.
2) Select the Ref curve, use REW to plot FR from you MMP for the range 15 to 120 Hz (as example only)
3) Set up an Excel, Google sheet, or the IOS equivalent spreadsheet to calculate boosts/cuts required quickly.
4) Pick a convenient target SPL based on the worse dips may have to ignore the sharp narrow room mode dips).
5) Select your anchor points for manual entries into Ratbuddyssey*
6) Enter the SPL values on the Y-axis that corresponds to each of the selected anchor point frequency.
7) Enter the calculated boosts/cuts required to bring the selected "anchor" points to the targeted levels.

* In picking your anchor points, try pick at least 30 points to cover the range 15 to 120 Hz (in this example)
You could try equal spacing (between frequencies) first and see how good the result look, or you can try picking about equal spacing, say every 3 Hz or even 5 Hz but always include the +/- peaks or near the peaks.

In your subsequent trials for fine tuning, always go back to the same REW reference FR graph, do NOT go by the new REW graph after your first trial adjustments have been made.

Below is an example of my reference REW FR plot (no smoothing!! for accuracy), and the Excel table shows the calculated (the "Adjustments" column) values for entering into the Ratbuddssey table.

I did not save the table that shows the 30 or so entries that got me within +/- 2 dB and the tabulated values I showed here were to be taken as an example just to show you how it looks.

Same for the Ratbuddyssey table, don't try to correlate them as I didn't do a good job in documented my many trial versions so they don't necessarily corresponds to each other.

Reference REW FR graph for picking the frequency points and the corresponding SPLs on the Y-Axis:

Enter the values to a spreadsheet table as show below, or you can do it manually but spreadsheets are much quicker.

New target SPL	68
Freq on ref curve	SPL on ref curve	Distance from target	Adjustments
13	70.84	2.84	-2.84
15	73.06	5.06	-5.06
16	71.95	3.95	-3.95
19	69.56	1.56	-1.56
22.96	68.75	0.75	-0.75
27.61	72.86	4.86	-4.86
33.6	73	5	-5
35.7	73	5	-5
39	70.48	2.48	-2.48
41	71.55	3.55	-3.55
45	70.47	2.47	-2.47
49.7	64.23	-3.77	3.77
51.6	65.99	-2.01	2.01
54.2	69.4	1.4	-1.4
56.3	68.4	0.4	-0.4
60.6	70.36	2.36	-2.36
62.5	69.52	1.52	-1.52
65	71.32	3.32	-3.32
68.6	69	1	-1
77.5	69.76	1.76	-1.76
79	69.22	1.22	-1.22
85.9	69.88	1.88	-1.88
88.1	69.6	1.6	-1.6
96	68.75	0.75	-0.75
98	68.97	0.97	-0.97
103	70.18	2.18	-2.18

Here they are, first one was with no tweaking, just ran Audyssey and use REW to plot the actual FR, using the reference curve:

After tweaking with Radbuddyssey:

You can see that using 26 data points (to shape the new target curve), I was able to improve the FR between 20 -120 Hz from about 9 dB peak to peak to 2.5 dB peak to peak, that is +/- 1.25 dB, I did achieve +/- 1 dB in the end but that's just to show what it can do, not that it would make anything sound any better.

I like the online editor more so far. Its easier in the online editor, than in the app, to make adustments. So thats one problem solved.

Yes, I like that part too, but I prefer entering data points to a spreadsheet like table, as I felt that way I have better control being able to see a bigger picture and to predict what is going to happen with the changes.

But i somewhat miss that you cant put in Q (from REW for example) and manually have to make several target curve points to mimic the Q you want. I have to play around some more. Thank your for your help.

I understand if you are used to using PEQ, you would want to use that format, but with Audyssey and Dirac, there is no need to do it like that because every time you enter a data point in boost or cuts you are effectively telling the software you want to reshape the curve according to those points that will act as anchor points to form the continuous curve.

For example, if you want to cut a bump at 90 Hz by 6 dB, but also you don't want it affect 80 Hz and 100 Hz, then you would enter an anchor point of say 0.2 dB or even 0 dB at 80 Hz and 100 Hz, that will be like entering a high Q of say 15, or higher. To me, that is actually better than having to calculate the best Q you think you would like to use. So, don't worry about the Q thing, you don't need to bother with that when tweaking Audyssey, or Dirac, just shape the curve with the data you enter, or draw it with you fingers, dragging mouse, using touch pen etc., though enter/typing in data point by point is much easier.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

My holiday project and present to myself was to replace a Denon x4800h with a MiniDSP Flex HT system for 5.2 home theater. I had a blast doing this project and I’m sticking with the Flex HT. I like the MiniDSP tools much more and I like managing and tinkering with the system.

Should you replace your AVR with the HT Flex? Probably not. Although higher, it’s likely that the sonic/SINAD benefits are in the inaudible range. The Flex HT system probably more expensive, more complex, has more remotes, and lacks features compared to a good mid-range AVR. You are replacing one big box with several smaller boxes. MiniDSP accepts no returns.

Still interested? Here’s what I learned and did.

Despite being called a 'Multichannel Home Theater Processor', the Flex HT needs help to function as an AVR. The issue is that the Flex HT(x) system can only handle surround sound that is license-free, meaning it cannot decode any licensed compression formats like Dolby. To use the Flex HT as an AVR, licensed decoding must be done by a by another device (like an upstream video streamer) and then output in the unlicensed 'Uncompressed Multichannel LPCM' format via eARC to the Flex HT. (Uncompressed Multichannel LPCM can only be transmitted via eARC. )

In practice the above means the $600 HT requires two additional specialty devices (in addition to an external amplifier), raising the total cost another $400

• A uncompressed multichannel LPCM video streaming source. Not much choice here. The ($149) Apple TV 4k video streamer is the only assured solution for Netflix, Hulu, Max etc... No other streamer works at the moment. Note that newer console gaming devices can also do uncompressed multichannel LPCM for many games and some better DVD/Bluray players also output uncompressed multichannel LPCM. It's just the video streamers that are behind although someone thinks the new Amazon Fire 4k might also work. Confusingly all TVs and streamers do 2 channels of uncompressed LPCM, which leads some people to think it will work multichannel, but it won't. Just get the Apple 4k.
• An eARC splitter. This is a misunderstood and critical device. It doesn’t change the audio or do any decoding for the system. It’s just an active splitter (or switch) that splits the source HDMI (e.g. Apple TV 4k) into two: one 4k HDMI video to the TV display and one eARC HDMI audio to the Flex HT(x). HD Fury devices (cheapest is $249) are recommended but there are cheaper alternatives.

Setup and configuration

Once you have your devices, the routing is simple. Split the video source with your eARC splitter and route one cable to the TV and one to the Flex HT. Use good cables, eARC can be finicky.

View attachment 417821
Some tips I can share

• The Apple TV 4k remote can learn 'mute' and 'volume' from the Flex HT, but not ‘preset’ or ‘source’ so you are still likely to use two remotes plus your TV remote. Apparently the minidsp remote codes in the old Logitech Harmony system work if you have one.
• The MiniDSP console software only runs on a computer, something I didn't have in my home theater room. At first, I used a very long cable so I could use a laptop comfortably away from thescreen. Later, I bought a used i3 minicomputer and connected to it with remote control software. That way I can connect to it on my phone as well.
• Down/Up mixing yourself – I had to create a preset on the MiniDSP for up-mixing older 2ch video sources to have a center channel if the dialog isn’t clear enough in stereo. I also created a 5.1 upmix for 2ch games and live sports events.
• If you need a video input switch, the HD Fury VRROOM can be purchased for $550 (used about $425) and it works well, but adds another remote and app.

The Xbox series X (and Xbox One for that matter) supports the full version of KODI, which can easily decode and output LPCM, that covers your ripped media library, and the console itself has user selectable LPCM output that works with Netflix, Hulu, HBO Max, etc for streaming.

Also not sure why nobody mentioned Home Theater PC's as a reliable source of decoded LPCM for home theater use.. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who's been using an HTPC for the past two decades.

 

[Chromatischism]

Also not sure why nobody mentioned Home Theater PC's as a reliable source of decoded LPCM for home theater use.. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who's been using an HTPC for the past two decades.

Things got more complicated with object-based immersive audio formats, 4K, and HDR. Some of it has been solved but some hasn't, for example we still cannot output Dolby Vision files to an HDTV and 4K UHD titles are massive.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Things got more complicated with object-based immersive audio formats, 4K, and HDR. Some of it has been solved but some hasn't, for example we still cannot output Dolby Vision files to an HDTV and 4K UHD titles are massive.

Modern’ish video chipsets can do all that stuff, and if we’re being real, 90% of people don’t care about object based audio. It’s a fad that won’t ever truly break through.

 

[Chromatischism]

Modern’ish video chipsets can do all that stuff, and if we’re being real, 90% of people don’t care about object based audio. It’s a fad that won’t ever truly break through.

No, the output of DV from a computer is a current limitation. HDR10 works fine though.

And Atmos and DTS:X are definitely not a "fad". They are the current best sound formats (well, for about 10 years now), built on Dolby TrueHD and DTS. Have you had a chance to hear anyone's home theater properly set up for it?

 

[d3ft]

I'm currently tossing up between a Flex and an AVR and stumbled upon this thread.

I've got a simple 2.1 setup of Genelec 8030s and an SVS sub. I run all media through my Samsung OLED (internal apps, no streamers) and just want a crossover and some bass management that lets me use the TV remote only.

I already have a 2x4hd and have tried every brand's remote code offered by the TV's built in remote integration and couldn't get it working.

Any advice on the simplest, cheapest setup that can do the above? I don't mind a little bit of tinkering up front but don't want to be messing with things after that.

From an earlier post it seems like an X1800H and some sort of Dirac licence is the go but wanted to confirm.

Edit: before anyone points it out, I acknowledge I'd be completely wasting the power amps in an AVR!

 

[masterhw]

I'm currently tossing up between a Flex and an AVR and stumbled upon this thread.

I've got a simple 2.1 setup of Genelec 8030s and an SVS sub. I run all media through my Samsung OLED (internal apps, no streamers) and just want a crossover and some bass management that lets me use the TV remote only.

I already have a 2x4hd and have tried every brand's remote code offered by the TV's built in remote integration and couldn't get it working.

Any advice on the simplest, cheapest setup that can do the above? I don't mind a little bit of tinkering up front but don't want to be messing with things after that.

From an earlier post it seems like an X1800H and some sort of Dirac licence is the go but wanted to confirm.

Anything below the X3800H can’t do Dirac. Honestly in your case I might consider a WiiM Ultra. WiiM can set some crossovers and filters, plus has a single HDMI with ARC.

 

[d3ft]

Anything below the X3800H can’t do Dirac. Honestly in your case I might consider a WiiM Ultra. WiiM can set some crossovers and filters, plus has a single HDMI with ARC.

This is the sort of advice I was hoping for. I'll check it out.

I'm just reading up on all this A1 Evo stuff. Seems like it's a homebrew Dirac?

 

[Chromatischism]

This is the sort of advice I was hoping for. I'll check it out.

I'm just reading up on all this A1 Evo stuff. Seems like it's a homebrew Dirac?

It's essentially a hack using Audyssey to make the FIR fillers using custom measurements.

 

[Genstruktur]

@peng

I bought a Minidsp Flex analog a couple of days ago. Second hand. I like it and i have not noitced the extra ad/da so far. Just wanted to tell you, Audyssey is on hold for the moment.

Thank you for all your help and great posts!

 

[peng]

@peng

I bought a Minidsp Flex analog a couple of days ago. Second hand. I like it and i have not noitced the extra ad/da so far. Just wanted to tell you, Audyssey is on hold for the moment.

Thank you for all your help and great posts!

That's a nice toy, congratulations! Yeah, I wouldn't worry about the ADDA thing either, just a note, in case you are one of those golden ears. Otherwise, it is the source contents, speakers, placement, room EQ/correction that have more audible effects than electronics that are speced and measurements confirmed to be audibly transparent to humans. I have a miniDSP HT and HTx already but probably would get a Flex, balanced too, or wait for their next new version of something, they are all nice little products with lots ways to use them.

 

[Genstruktur]

That's a nice toy, congratulations! Yeah, I wouldn't worry about the ADDA thing either, just a note, in case you are one of those golden ears. Otherwise, it is the source contents, speakers, placement, room EQ/correction that have more audible effects than electronics that are speced and measurements confirmed to be audibly transparent to humans. I have a miniDSP HT and HTx already but probably would get a Flex, balanced too, or wait for their next new version of something, they are all nice little products with lots ways to use them.

Well thank you .

So far i have not noticed any degradation with it in the chain and no active filters, just unity gain through it at analog input/output.

 

[Matt S]

Well thank you .

So far i have not noticed any degradation with it in the chain and no active filters, just unity gain through it at analog input/output.

Congratulations! I love my HTx - took a little bit of time to set up, but once done... fabulous. The team at MiniDSP is also helpful.

 

[Genstruktur]

Congratulations! I love my HTx - took a little bit of time to set up, but once done... fabulous. The team at MiniDSP is also helpful.

Yeah it seems like a really good piece of Audio equipment! I have loaded som filters on preset 2, 3, 4 and kept preset 1 clean. I just wanted to listen to it for a while to make certain it was transparent.

I had a Minidsp 2x4 about 10 years ago and i wasn't satisfied with they way it sounded fullrange analog in/out. But Flex has come a long way!

To bad there is no wifi and app built in with out buying extra equipment. Miss it when sitting in MLP for monitoring dB-meters in the device console.

 

[rimmi2002]

Great thread here. Despite the title, I am thinking of replacing my AVR with a MiniDSP Flex HT (As a preamp). Wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything. I am doing it because, based on reviews and numbers, this seems like a top-level DAC that fits my needs at a fraction of the cost of what high-end multichannel preamps cost.


- I have a 5.2 system; in the future, I might go 2.x but never more than 7 channels.

- All sources I use can output PCM (apple TV/ Blu-ray Player)

- I don't care about extra remotes. I have a Logitech remote that I should be able to program for the Flex HT / Any HDMI switch I add.

- I have never really used any of the smart features of an AVR before. I don't really upmix anything. I listen to 2.0 content in 2.2 stereo and multichannel content in 5.2.

- I am familiar with MiniDSP products, REW, and have a UMIK. I’ve used the 2x4HD for many years.

- I have an Arcana HDFury to extract audio from HDMI sources.


Based on everything I have read, it makes sense that this niche product paired with an amplifier should work well for me, but I wanted to make sure I haven't overlooked anything. Thanks for your help!

 

[danstahl]

Great thread here. Despite the title, I am thinking of replacing my AVR with a MiniDSP Flex HT (As a preamp). Wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything. I am doing it because, based on reviews and numbers, this seems like a top-level DAC that fits my needs at a fraction of the cost of what high-end multichannel preamps cost.


- I have a 5.2 system; in the future, I might go 2.x but never more than 7 channels.

- All sources I use can output PCM (apple TV/ Blu-ray Player)

- I don't care about extra remotes. I have a Logitech remote that I should be able to program for the Flex HT / Any HDMI switch I add.

- I have never really used any of the smart features of an AVR before. I don't really upmix anything. I listen to 2.0 content in 2.2 stereo and multichannel content in 5.2.

- I am familiar with MiniDSP products, REW, and have a UMIK. I’ve used the 2x4HD for many years.

- I have an Arcana HDFury to extract audio from HDMI sources.


Based on everything I have read, it makes sense that this niche product paired with an amplifier should work well for me, but I wanted to make sure I haven't overlooked anything. Thanks for your help!

Nope, you are well suited for the htx. You will need an hdmi switch if you have multiple sources.

 

[rimmi2002]

Nope, you are well suited for the htx. You will need an hdmi switch if you have multiple sources.

Awesome. Thanks! Yup Plan to add a HDMI Switch prior to the HD fury.


The only small thing I wish the Flex HT had (I don't think it has this feature)...but I don't see why can't they implement a little software side GUI that based on source material 2.0 vs. multichannel can use a predesignated preset on the FlexHT for that source material?