I replaced my AVR with a Flex HT, but don't recommend it.

[90sNintendoKid]

Hello,

Im thinking about adding a Minidsp to my set up and although the Minidsp flex HT seems like a option for home Theatre im reluctant for the same reasons that this thread is about. I run a Nvidia Shield with Kodi to a Denon avr 3800 and pre out to power amplifier for the fronts.

Decoding in Nvidia Shield with Kodi and sending lpcm to Denon 3800 through arc/earc seems to have potential problems. My experience with arc in the past has not been positive. I would also miss all processing of audio formats in Denon 3800.

I really just want to ad peq filters to my fronts and thinking of buying a Mindsp flex analog instead and place it between my Denon 3800 pre out and power amplifier. Set the volume on the Minidsp to -10 and then never touch it again. Any thoughts on this setup?

I have capable fronts and mix the lfe chanel in the fronts and setup the Denon 3800 to subwoofer "NO". This works great.

Sorry for my English

I wonder if you've thought about using MultiEQX?

I use it along with Magic Beans, I measure with MB and export the curves/EQ and then import into MultEQX.

I just checked the Dirac website and the 3800h has DLBC.

I personally would go with DLBC and use my own target curves.

 

[Genstruktur]

I wonder if you've thought about using MultiEQX?

I use it along with Magic Beans, I measure with MB and export the curves/EQ and then import into MultEQX.

I just checked the Dirac website and the 3800h has DLBC.

I personally would go with DLBC and use my own target curves.

I have tried Audyssey several times through the years and also Dirac. I want full freedom to choose wich peq-filters to implement. Just now i have an analog peq in my system thats transparent but i need more filter posistions and therefore im thinking about getting a Minidsp flex.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I have tried Audyssey several times through the years and also Dirac. I want full freedom to choose wich peq-filters to implement. Just now i have an analog peq in my system thats transparent but i need more filter posistions and therefore im thinking about getting a Minidsp flex.

I use my own parametric EQ filters in MultEQX. I do an Audessey measurement in the MultEQX app and then disable it and then remove the default curves and import my own EQ.

After disabling the Audessey measurement, I use the levels and distances as a basis for fine tuning.

I would prefer this over putting a Minidsp in the chain to avoid extra analogue to digital and then back to analogue steps in the audio chain.

I recommend you check out the Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile and HD Movie Source YouTube channels.

 

[Genstruktur]

I use my own parametric EQ filters in MultEQX. I do an Audessey measurement in the MultEQX app and then disable it and then remove the default curves and import my own EQ.

After disabling the Audessey measurement, I use the levels and distances as a basis for fine tuning.

I would prefer this over putting a Minidsp in the chain to avoid extra analogue to digital and then back to analogue steps in the audio chain.

I recommend you check out the Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile and HD Movie Source YouTube channels.

Well this i can admit could be a problem "I would prefer this over putting a Minidsp in the chain to avoid extra analogue to digital and then back to analogue steps in the audio chain"

But i was under the impression that the minidsp flex was transparent?

Do i need to purchase licence on my computer or is the license in the Audyssey Android app sufficient?

I have the Audyssey app and tried the auto magic. Not really my taste.
I will check out the video. So its possible to decide wich peq-filters to use and import this from Rew into the Audyssey eq app, and Audyssey leaves everything else uneffected? Even with no subwoofer and fronts fullrange?

 

[peng]

I'd be using the Denon as a pure AVP. Now if the Marantz Cinema 40 had a much better pre-amp stage...).

FYI, the Cinema 40 have the same preamp stage as Denon's. It has been that way since around 2017 or even 2016, you can see the same block diagram published by D+M in more than one articles or YT videos. One exception is, Cinema 50 and 40 has HDAMs but if they did it the same way as the SR601X and 701X series , the HDAMs would be the second last stage so there will be at least one opa upstream, and one opa downstream, so even if the HDAM, a discrete opa has perfect slew rate, it will not do anything because of the opa up and downstream, so the benefits their marketing BS makes no sense, though it may have other benefits that I would think too little to make audible difference, could also make things worse as it is an extra stage so...

Only issue is that I now need to add a phono preamp with digital outputs. Otherwise I couldn't be happier. Oh, one more thing: The remote is terrible. Ok, I lost it, that's not the fault of the remote, but somehow, the remote codes are too close to each other, so sometimes pressing up means down, etc. Also, it seems like they use the same codes for multiple MiniDSP products, so if you have them, you're a bit screwed.

Funny you mentioned the remote, I have two devices but only have on powered on at a time, yet the remote is indeed a nuisance, for some reasons its response is erratic at times. It would suddenly work as though its time to change the battery but the battery is good, so I have to assume the erratic behavior is on the unit itself, not a big deal because the knob always work and when the remote started to behave like that, cycling power the unit would fix it.

 

[peng]

Hello,

Im thinking about adding a Minidsp to my set up and although the Minidsp flex HT seems like a option for home Theatre im reluctant for the same reasons that this thread is about. I run a Nvidia Shield with Kodi to a Denon avr 3800 and pre out to power amplifier for the fronts.

Decoding in Nvidia Shield with Kodi and sending lpcm to Denon 3800 through arc/earc seems to have potential problems. My experience with arc in the past has not been positive. I would also miss all processing of audio formats in Denon 3800.

I really just want to ad peq filters to my fronts and thinking of buying a Mindsp flex analog instead and place it between my Denon 3800 pre out and power amplifier. Set the volume on the Minidsp to -10 and then never touch it again. Any thoughts on this setup?

I have capable fronts and mix the lfe chanel in the fronts and setup the Denon 3800 to subwoofer "NO". This works great.

Sorry for my English

If all you want is to use peq, you will be better off spending $20 to get the MultEQ Editor app, or the $200 MultEQ X, that's a much cheaper and much easier and effective (in the case of the MultEQ X) solution. The ultimate is to spend more, like $600 to $700 (not sure what the current deal is, they do go on sale now and then) on DLBC and you will get the best possible performance among the 3 options. Hooking up minidsp via analog to an AVR is no fun, been there, done that, had to rip one out and sold it as I couldn't stand the spaghetti wire junction.

 

[Genstruktur]

If all you want is to use peq, you will be better off spending $20 to get the MultEQ Editor app, or the $200 MultEQ X, that's a much cheaper and much easier and effective (in the case of the MultEQ X) solution. The ultimate is to spend more, like $600 to $700 (not sure what the current deal is, they do go on sale now and then) on DLBC and you will get the best possible performance among the 3 options. Hooking up minidsp via analog to an AVR is no fun, been there, done that, had to rip one out and sold it as I couldn't stand the spaghetti wire junction.

Okay, so 200 dollars for the Multi EQx. I disgree regarding that Diracs auto magic is superior to making your own adjustments and filters. But i understand your point of view.

Spaghetti wire junction i think is the smallest problem and once installd you never have to look at it again

 

[masterhw]

Definitely recommend OCA’s A1 Evo (or whatever the latest version is called now) as a candidate. Great sounding room EQ requiring no special license (for D&M hardware) and some versions allow for moderate tinkering. REW based so you can always see the filters it generates before you apply them.

In any case I agree with the framing that choice of room correction will make the biggest difference here, more than SINAD/transparency, and letting that guide the choice of product.

 

[Genstruktur]

Definitely recommend OCA’s A1 Evo (or whatever the latest version is called now) as a candidate. Great sounding room EQ requiring no special license (for D&M hardware) and some versions allow for moderate tinkering. REW based so you can always see the filters it generates before you apply them.

Yes i have read about this but i was under the impression that you had to have subwoofer ON in your receiver for the script to work, and could not have the lfe-channel directed to the fronts with A1 Evo?

 

[masterhw]

Yes i have read about this but i was under the impression that you had to have subwoofer ON in your receiver, and could not have the lfe-channel directed to the fronts for it to work with A1 Evo?

Oh, that is correct. SW is a requirement.

 

[Genstruktur]

Oh, that is correct. SW is a requirement.

Bummer!

 

[90sNintendoKid]

If you want to do your own EQ with MultEQX with no subwoofer, that is possible.

 

[Chromatischism]

For some users with multiple subwoofers it is very beneficial to be able to independantly control the delay of each relative to the mains.

And AVRs can do that, including the one he replaced.

I agree with all your points Randy.
Wow, didn't realize AVR had that capability. I havnt followed em for the past 10 years as my enthusiasm has been in 2.X Music of which is prob too off-topic for this thread.

Is $1K an exaggeration though?
Quick google search says: x3800h is 1,275 + DIRAC for 700 = $1,975
So call it $2K?

Just to be clear because I didn't see anyone follow up on this: you don't need Dirac for that capability. You can use Audyssey XT32 + its companion app for $20. The total outlay isn't bad at all.

Also on the "clicking": Denons only click when engaging/disengaging amps. There is no click when changing inputs or decoding formats.

 

[peng]

Okay, so 200 dollars for the Multi EQx. I disgree regarding that Diracs auto magic is superior to making your own adjustments and filters. But i understand your point of view.

Understood, sound quality is perceived, subjective, my comments based on measurements that I and others have done a lot and posted on forums for anyone interested to see and compare, but again that's based on measurements so for clarify when I say best possible performance I absolutely never meant "best" in terms of perceived performance based on subjective hearing by ears/brains. Also, I wasn't referring to Dirac auto, I meant Dirac is extremely flexible in terms of manual tweaking post auto calibration. You can reshape the target curve just about anyway you want, it just take time to do if you aim for perfection (again, I mean on paper). With minidsp flex series, you get a maximum of 20 filters, though that should be sufficient for all intents and purposes, though I have used all of them just for fun.

Spaghetti wire junction i think is the smallest problem and once installd you never have to look at it again

Then that's not an issue for you. Are you concerned about the digital to analog and then back to digital again conversions? I don't worry that so much but I think some people do. I have two units, the HT and HTx and I love them both, especially the HTx that have balanced I/O, like you, I only wanted their PEQ capabilities, there are a total of 20 PEQs/Biquads that allow me to fine tune DLBC for a flatter response. The nice thing about Audyssey's X option is that you are practically not limited by the number of Biquads, and once imported from REW, it will implement the filters in FIR instead of IIR. There are as always pros and cons of both, but minidsp's own website seem to have the opion that FIR, while more processing intensive, is "better".

FIR vs IIR filtering

In this application note, we will explain the difference between FIR ("finite impulse response") and IIR ("infinite impulse response") filtering.

www.minidsp.com

Is it the HTx you are considering?

 

[Genstruktur]

Understood, sound quality is perceived, subjective, my comments based on measurements that I and others have done a lot and posted on forums for anyone interested to see and compare, but again that's based on measurements so for clarify when I say best possible performance I absolutely never meant "best" in terms of perceived performance based on subjective hearing by ears/brains. Also, I wasn't referring to Dirac auto, I meant Dirac is extremely flexible in terms of manual tweaking post auto calibration. You can reshape the target curve just about anyway you want, it just take time to do if you aim for perfection (again, I mean on paper). With minidsp flex series, you get a maximum of 20 filters, though that should be sufficient for all intents and purposes, though I have used all of them just for fun.

Then that's not an issue for you. Are you concerned about the digital to analog and then back to digital again conversions? I don't worry that so much but I think some people do. I have two units, the HT and HTx and I love them both, especially the HTx that have balanced I/O, like you, I only wanted their PEQ capabilities, there are a total of 20 PEQs/Biquads that allow me to fine tune DLBC for a flatter response. The nice thing about Audyssey's X option is that you are practically not limited by the number of Biquads, and once imported from REW, it will implement the filters in FIR instead of IIR. There are as always pros and cons of both, but minidsp's own website seem to have the opion that FIR, while more processing intensive, is "better".

FIR vs IIR filtering

In this application note, we will explain the difference between FIR ("finite impulse response") and IIR ("infinite impulse response") filtering.

www.minidsp.com

Is it the HTx you are considering?

It is the Minidsp flex analog unbalanced im considering. And yes, im concerned abot the ad/dc from this solution but many seem to think its transparent and if i buy one second hand i can always sell it again if i dont like it. If i buy Dirac and dont like it, again, then well i have spent a lot of money .

When i tried Dirac fullrange i owned the Arcam 390 and i tweked a lot and uploaded harman curves etc but i never really liked it. Just resently ive read about Dirac altering the shape of the curve in the high frequency even if you tell it not to. So it would like to have total control of whats being applied. Its in Swedish but heres the thred about Dirac im refering to.

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Tekniken bakom Dirac Live

This is making me quite nervous spending hundred of dollars on Dirac one more time .

 

[Genstruktur]

If you want to do your own EQ with MultEQX with no subwoofer, that is possible.

Ok! I will look in to that.

 

[peng]

Ok! I will look in to that.

Again, if you just want to implement manual PEQs it is a good way, just keep in mind the $200 license is tie to the device. If you the device failed and replaced, I believe you could contact them and they would do something about it. Imo the $20 option is better but you would have to use 3rd party software such as oca’s, Ratbuddyssey etc. OCA’s are automated with his script, I used to do with Ratbuddyssey but that’s a more time consuming process.

 

[Genstruktur]

Again, if you just want to implement manual PEQs it is a good way, just keep in mind the $200 license is tie to the device. If you the device failed and replaced, I believe you could contact them and they would do something about it. Imo the $20 option is better but you would have to use 3rd party software such as oca’s, Ratbuddyssey etc. OCA’s are automated with his script, I used to do with Ratbuddyssey but that’s a more time consuming process.

Well it's the cheapest option for sure! And if you can disabled everything else besides your own peq-filters that would be great! Can you import peq-filters from rew also and biquads?

With my analog peq i have to dial in and manually find the right G, F and Q. It works but its not all that precise.

 

[peng]

Well it's the cheapest option for sure! And if you can disabled everything else besides your own peq-filters that would be great! Can you import peq-filters from rew also and biquads?

It is complicated to answer yes or no. There are different ways available, your best bet may be to watch some of those (quite a few out there) videos such as the following:

For OCA's

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips)

Hi Everyone, I've created a Web version of the ratbuddyssey app with most of it functionality and no installation required. You are welcome to check it out: https://audyssey.pages.dev

forums.audioholics.com

With my analog peq i have to dial in and manually find the right G, F and Q. It works but its not all that precise.

To use the $20 app with Ratbuddyssey:

Announcing ratbuddyssey - a tool for tweaking Audyssey...

Cornball name, I know, but it was that, or fraudyssey, and being a bit vain, I went with my name :P Anyway: I like the idea of the MultEQ app, but the execution left me wanting a bit more. I wanted to be able to precisely input my custom target curve points, rather than fiddling with a small...

www.avsforum.com

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/announcing-ratbuddyssey-a-tool-for-tweaking-audyssey-multeq-app-files.3006886/page-25?post_id=60047735#post-60047735

and there are other 3rd party software to help you take advantage/enhance the $20 App, most if not all of them won't be free, but likely just a low reasonable fees.

Basically, they all let you use REW to do the PEQs, or auto generated BIQUADS by REW. You probably would like the $200 app because it actually let you important the REW filters and you can see the G, F, Q that you are familiar with, whereas OCA's A1 Evo (and his other variety versions), and Ratbuddyssey would do those things behind the scene. In the end though, even the $200 app won't actually be doing the real BIQUAD implementation like the minidsp would do, but they would just use the same PEQ/BIQUAD format via the App's interface to take the data collected by the mic and REW, and then implement FIR filters as I mentioned earlier.

To use the $200 app:

At the end of the day, it is the actual results that count, and I can offer the results I got with two of my many experiments using the $20 app and the freeware Ratbuddyssey:

1) Spending about two hours of tweaking:

The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips)

"Audyssey is launching a new PC-based software package working with Denon/Marantz AVRs that incorporates Audyssey technology"-Possibly gonna compete against Dirac??? https://www.soundunited.com/webinars?fbclid=IwAR2pZe2PdF7yXt_aiX-1JpJcjkslZXdoRNz3kTplixSQOcrHTk5pfZBQKUY

forums.audioholics.com

and if I spent more time, many hours of tweaking, I could achieve the following:

That's +/- 1.1 dB, 1/12 smoothing, 20-100 Hz, I have yet to see anything better than that, regardless of software/hardware used, by anyone.

So, in my experience, there are several options to do what you seem to want to do and all will deliver results if you work on it, maybe just do your research and the pick one that you think is the best for you.

As to not use Audyssey's own filters except those converted from REW BIQUADs or manual PEQs, you can easily do so using L/R bypass, but that applies to the LR channels only, though I believe OCA's solutions, you can do the same to the other channels too because if I understand right, OCA use the App as a tool, but the filters are created by REW, converted by the App, but it is best to contact @OCA directly for an answer, he is a very helpful person.

 

[Genstruktur]

Thank you Peng!

First of all would like to say that i feel that my english isnt good enough to give you a answer on the same level as your post.

Last night i played around a little bit with my Audysseymesurment in the app. Applied a house curve, played around with mid range compensation etc. Although the app is not really that precise i think the end result didnt sound bad. I have to play at referencelevel to really hear the end result. But i think it sounded better then i Dirac did in my old room - apartment. I have since then moved to my own house and did a lot of room treatment so its not at fair comparison. But anyway i got a bit intrigued to play around with it som more before i write Audyssey off.

I think i will give Ratbiddyssey i chance because it seems easier to applie housecurve than in the app. It took me quite a few attempts to get the curve to where i wanted. In Dirac its recommended to use the same curve for all speakers i remember, is it the same in Audyssey?

I will also measure with Rew with different settings on/off to really se what happens. Audyssey flat seem to ignore the curtains and tries to make the high frequency flat? Last night i thought reference sounded more like my speakers do without Audyssey/with my analog peq and not too bright like flat did. This was the problem with Dirac as well i remember. The lower end was great but higher frequencies tended to sound harsh, bright and maybe distorted? Im really allergic to this type of sound.

I watched som videos on YouTube with Audyssey and third party scripts, and som of them seemed quite complicated and time consuming especially if you would want to change things around fast and try things out. But i will give Ratbuddyssey i try. In the Audyssey app it was quite swift process to make changes and upload to receiver besides making my houscurve the way i wanted it.