I need help to find an ideal portable BT DAC/Amp for the HifiMan Arya Stealth.

[Alter.Nate.37]

Hi!

After years of BT I decided to go for the Arya Stealth because I'm mostly home and quality has now priority. It will arrive in few days.
I enjoy moving around while listening to music sometimes, so I was thinking to buy a portable BT DAC/Amp.
I am a nerd and have a multifaceted knowledge also in tech stuff but I am not an expert in audio science.
In other words even if I can understand the/some concepts behind the specs, I can't quantify the number into something concrete.
And if this wasn't enough, I read confusing things about how much more power a planar headphone needs to really shine, compared to a dynamic one with same impedance and sensitivity.

This is what I did till now:

• Used the formula P = 10^((SPL_target - Sensitivity) / 10) and determined that headphones with a sensitivity of 94dB per 1mW like the Arya Stealth would need 39.81mW P (power output).
• Read around and asked different AIs and got nothing concrete about how much more power do planar need. Some people say 1-2W. 2W is 50x 40mW, right? I can't even comprehend why would this be needed.
• Asked someone who was selling a Topping G5 and he said "wtf are you wanting this for with the Arya Stealth? Do you want to become deaf? You need 120mW not 1.2W! I'm selling the G5 because I can't ever get past its low gain mode and one should push an amp to 50-75% of its limits to make it shine".
• Asked AI if that was true and it said "only for older class A/AB amps. Modern ones not really. And class D amps not at all".
• Looked for the class of the iFi Go Blue, FiiO BTR17, and Topping G5, asked AI, got nothing but the guess that it's D or a modern AB which doesn't need to be pushed.
• Realized that I have the iFi Go Link Max (100mW with 3.5 @32 Ohm) and the HifiMan Deva Pro (18 Ohm, 93.5dB) and made a test: I am comfortable with the SPL I get from them with 70% of Windows volume.
  Asked two different AI how much Windows volume would I need with the Arya Stealth (32 Ohm 94dB) with the several power outputs in the specs of the BTR17 to reach the same SPL that I would with Go Link Max and Deva Pro at 100% Windows volume.
  I was told the exact same:
  - Arya with a 140 mW P: ~80% of Windows volume
  - Arya with a 280 mW P: ~56% of Windows volume
  - Arya with a 300 mW P: ~54.5% of Windows volume
  - Arya with a 650 mW P: ~37% of Windows volume
• realized that if that's true, I definitely do not NEED more power, nor do the Arya.
• remained with the doubt that it's not about loudness/SPL but about how maybe a more powerful amp would at same SPL give a more dynamic sound with deeper bass and blahblah.

So here I am asking the experts.
What can I expect from the BTR17 with the Arya Stealth?
And would a more powerful amp, let's say Topping G5 (1.2W) or FiiO Q15 (1.65W) or lan hypothetical BTR17 with 3 times more output power, give a "better" sound (more dynamic, alive, impactful etc) at same SPL?

I really hope not so. I've put 265g in the belt pouch which I'd be forced to use at home (with a belt on my underwear!) if I have to use the G5.
It's not doable.
After all this thing is meant to be attached to the phone, not hung from a belt like the BTR17.
At this point I'd rather buy something even bigger and better if I find it for similar price, and completely renounce to move around with the Arya.
After all I have the Audeze Maxwell too and I need to use them sometimes.

Let me know
Thnx

 

[staticV3]

Used the formula P = 10^((SPL_target - Sensitivity) / 10) and determined that headphones with a sensitivity of 94dB per 1mW like the Arya Stealth would need 39.81mW P (power output).

39.81mW->110dB SPL Peak.

Just as a point of comparison, my usual listening volume is 80-85dB SPL Peak, so roughly 15% of the perceived loudness of 110dB.

Read around and asked different AIs and got nothing concrete about how much more power do planar need. Some people say 1-2W. 2W is 50x 40mW, right? I can't even comprehend why would this be needed.

It's not needed. Just Audiofool voodoo regurgitated by the AI.

Realized that I have the iFi Go Link Max (100mW with 3.5 @32 Ohm) and the HifiMan Deva Pro (18 Ohm, 93.5dB) and made a test: I am comfortable with the SPL I get from them with 70% of Windows volume.
Asked two different AI how much Windows volume would I need with the Arya Stealth (32 Ohm 94dB) with the several power outputs in the specs of the BTR17 to reach the same SPL that I would with Go Link Max and Deva Pro at 100% Windows volume.
I was told the exact same:
- Arya with a 140 mW P: ~80% of Windows volume
- Arya with a 280 mW P: ~56% of Windows volume
- Arya with a 300 mW P: ~54.5% of Windows volume
- Arya with a 650 mW P: ~37% of Windows volume

Windows volume % is not a consistent reference that you can base calculations on.

That's because any DAC that supports UAC2 Hardware volume, and most DACs like the iFi Go Link do, will inject their own, individual volume curve behavior into Windows' 0-100 volume slider.

"70%" then means different things on different DACs.

Instead, use a $10-15 Multimeter and a 0dBFS 60Hz test tone (attached below) to measure your DAC's output voltage after adjusting the volume to your preference playing music.

After measuring the output voltage and calculating the SPL @0dBFS using your headphone's sensitivity (dB/V), not their efficiency (dB/mW), you can take a look at the track that you used to adjust volume using Audacity, Audition etc.

Add the track's dBFS Peak value to your above calculated SPL and you know your Peak listening SPL (e.g. 93dB SPL Peak@0dBFS + -0.85dBFS Peak track level = 92.15dB SPL Peak listening volume).

Then subtract the track's difference between Average volume and peak volume (=Crest factor) and you get the Average listening volume (e.g. 92.15dB SPL Peak listening volume - 14.25dB CF = 77.9dB SPL AVG listening volume).

Important:

-Use a music player with bit-exact audio transmission (Wasapi Exclusive or ASIO if your DAC has drivers for it) to avoid Windows messing with audio levels.

-Make sure that Replay gain is disabled, which would again mess with levels.

-Some dongle/thumb drive DACs will measure your headphone's impedance on headphone plugin and adjust gain automatically.

To avoid the DAC applying Low gain to your headphones while listening to music, but switching to High gain when you measure the output voltage, leave the headphone cable plugged in but disconnect the headphone ear cups, then measure at the exposed headphone connectors of the cable.

remained with the doubt that it's not about loudness/SPL but about how maybe a more powerful amp would at same SPL give a more dynamic sound with deeper bass and blahblah.

No.

What can I expect from the BTR17 with the Arya Stealth?

115dB SPL Peak via 3.5mm/119dB SPL Peak via 4.4mm (without Desktop mode)

But also a frustrating App control experience that does not match its price.

And would a more powerful amp, let's say Topping G5 (1.2W) or FiiO Q15 (1.65W) or lan hypothetical BTR17 with 3 times more output power, give a "better" sound (more dynamic, alive, impactful etc) at same SPL?

No.

Output power soley determines loudness.
A powerful Amp set to the same loudness as a less powerful Amp will sound identical.

Lastly, instead of the BTR17, consider the Qudelix 5K.

It can also drive the Arya Stealth to their, and your ears', breaking point, but has a vastly superior App.

It's also smaller and lighter.

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

39.81mW->110dB SPL Peak.

Just as a point of comparison, my usual listening volume is 80-85dB SPL Peak, so roughly 15% of the perceived loudness of 110dB.

Edit: ok the nerd in me had to find this out.
Do you refer to the fact that an increase of 10 dB is generally perceived as a doubling of loudness? So, rough formula, a 30 dB difference (from 80 dB to 110 dB) corresponds to a perceived loudness decrease of approximately eight times, or 12.5% as loud as 110 dB?

I think from my empiric experience that the volume scaling of the Go Link Max is logarithmic.
ChatGPT says that it should be that 70% volume (my comfortable loud) is 25-30% of power. Let's say 28. That makes 108dB.
The volume I use the most is 50%. According to ChatGPT it's around 10% power = 10mW = 103.5.
20% is where I have it as background while I do other stuff. Logarithmic = 1% power = 1mW = 93.5.
How do you even hear anything at 80dB? With the Deva Pro it would be 0.05mW power from the Amp, it's like volume at 5% or something?

Instead, use a $10-15 Multimeter and a 0dBFS 60Hz test tone (attached below) to measure your DAC's output voltage after adjusting the volume to your preference playing music.

Tbh it all sounds quite advanced for me. But I'll see when I get amp and headphones.
If I still don't get it I'll ask you:

Lastly, instead of the BTR17, consider the Qudelix 5K.

It can also drive the Arya Stealth to their, and your ears', breaking point, but has a vastly superior App.

It's also smaller and lighter.

Yeah but 2.5 balanced, it makes me feel it's going to break at some point.
Other than that it seems quite capable. It doesn't seem too different than the iFi Go Blu apart for the different DAC and that it has Dual DAC but no dedicated amp, while the iFi has single DAC but dedicated double amp (with same weight, 4.4, more beautiful, Xbass for quick push).
I can get them for the same price.
I will have to try them.
Yes the apps and generally all software stuff of FiiO are a nightmare.

 

[Brian Hall]

Have you considered getting a DAP (digital audio players) instead of using a small Bluetooth DAC/amp? Also think about getting a shorter cable for the Arya Stealth. The cable that comes with it is too long for listening while moving around.

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

Have you considered getting a DAP (digital audio players) instead of using a small Bluetooth DAC/amp? Also think about getting a shorter cable for the Arya Stealth. The cable that comes with it is too long for listening while moving around.

That's a freaking good point. I'll need to buy two cable, damn. Two balanced decent cables are at least 100 bucks.
Unless I convince Hart Audio to customize one for me where the longer part is the bottom one, not the dual one which goes in the headphones.
So I could simply have a longer 4.4 module for sitting and a shorter one for moving around.

DAP why?
I prefer to stream from the notebook where I have all my music and foobar and I will (if they manage to discover why I can't install the license manager) have also Virtuoso, which maybe with the Arya is not needed (virtual surround), I'm getting it for the Audeze Maxwell. But still.
Anyway I will look into it.
So you say sacrificing BT to get a bit more quality (although, honestly, LDAC is pretty good for a FLAC, and the BTR17 can stream in aptX Lossless which is 100% lossless in CD quality), and playing directly from a DAP which can work as USB DAC when I sit and want to play from the PC?
It there such a thing?

 

[Brian Hall]

DAP why?
I prefer to stream from the notebook where I have all my music and foobar and I will (if they manage to discover why I can't install the license manager) have also Virtuoso, which maybe with the Arya is not needed (virtual surround), I'm getting it for the Audeze Maxwell. But still.
Anyway I will look into it.
So you say sacrificing BT to get a bit more quality (although, honestly, LDAC is pretty good for a FLAC, and the BTR17 can stream in aptX Lossless which is 100% lossless in CD quality), and playing directly from a DAP which can work as USB DAC when I sit and want to play from the PC?
It there such a thing?

Bluetooth has a pretty limited range. It really depends on what you mean by moving around. When I go do things outside, I use my DAP for music and leave my phone inside.

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

Bluetooth has a pretty limited range. It really depends on what you mean by moving around. When I go do things outside, I use my DAP for music and leave my phone inside.

ah but I'm poor and live in a small apartment. I had actually bought a FiiO BT11 and BTA30 Pro to see if I get more range than with my laptop's chip (which got LDAC thanks to the Alternative A2DP Driver), but I didn't so I returned them (well, the BT11 not yet, it's a disaster, difficult to pair and with one of the worst apps ever made in the history of apps, but it has all codecs, including aptx Lossless which I would need if I buy the BTR17).
The range btw depend on the antenna used and the implementation.
I think that my laptop uses the same antennas as for wifi, so it's quite strong.
And things like the FiiO BTA30 Pro supposedly reaches 50m, allegedtly even the small and disastrous BT11 reaches 30. Avantree and 1Mii do long range stuff too.

Still, depending on the price it might not be such a bad Idea.
But now that I think about it, I do have an LG V60 with Quad DAC, it uses the ES9218P, and has max output of 2 Vrms which should be 125mW per channel with 32 Ohm headphones, right?
That would actually be enough for some good loudness with the Arya (114dB to leave some headroom).
I might actually not need any DAP. Maybe not even a DAC because afaik you can use the V60 as an USB DAC (I'm not sure though).
And in the V60 there's a decent virtual surround, and I use Neutron MP, so, I'd be actually pretty good for moving around.
How didn't I think about it before.
I'll see when the Arya arrive if it's enough as only DAP/DAC.
If not, maybe at this point I better buy just an Atom Stack? Afaik it's the most affordable good Amp/DAC.
Hmmm...

 

[Brian Hall]

ah but I'm poor and live in a small apartment. I had actually bought a FiiO BT11 and BTA30 Pro to see if I get more range than with my laptop's chip (which got LDAC thanks to the Alternative A2DP Driver), but I didn't so I returned them (well, the BT11 not yet, it's a disaster, difficult to pair and with one of the worst apps ever made in the history of apps, but it has all codecs, including aptx Lossless which I would need if I buy the BTR17).
The range btw depend on the antenna used and the implementation.
I think that my laptop uses the same antennas as for wifi, so it's quite strong.
And things like the FiiO BTA30 Pro supposedly reaches 50m, allegedtly even the small and disastrous BT11 reaches 30. Avantree and 1Mii do long range stuff too.

Still, depending on the price it might not be such a bad Idea.
But now that I think about it, I do have an LG V60 with Quad DAC, it uses the ES9218P, and has max output of 2 Vrms which should be 125mW per channel with 32 Ohm headphones, right?
That would actually be enough for some good loudness with the Arya (114dB to leave some headroom).
I might actually not need any DAP. Maybe not even a DAC because afaik you can use the V60 as an USB DAC (I'm not sure though).
And in the V60 there's a decent virtual surround, and I use Neutron MP, so, I'd be actually pretty good for moving around.
How didn't I think about it before.
I'll see when the Arya arrive if it's enough as only DAP/DAC.
If not, maybe at this point I better buy just an Atom Stack? Afaik it's the most affordable good Amp/DAC.
Hmmm...

There are a lot of considerations. I don't have anything against Bluetooth and use Galaxy Buds Pro 2 with my phone sometimes.

Battery life is something to think about.

I normally use IEMs with my DAP, but after I posted my last message, connected my Arya Stealth Magnet headphones to the DAP (Hiby R6 III). It has plenty of power to drive them (can get louder than I want) and the sound is great as expected.

 

[FreakyKiwi]

The need for higher power is to accommodate EQ (with negative pre-gain) and replaygain.

My 5K isn't powerful enough to drive my Edition XS to a good listening volume with these enabled.

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

Battery life is something to think about.

Not in my case, I'm mostly at home and mostly stationary, but yes, generally it is. Modern devices tend to be quite good there though.

I normally use IEMs with my DAP, but after I posted my last message, connected my Arya Stealth Magnet headphones to the DAP (Hiby R6 III). It has plenty of power to drive them (can get louder than I want) and the sound is great as expected.

My ears are allergic to IEMs.
What DAP do you have, what's its output power for 32 Ohm?

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

The need for higher power is to accommodate EQ (with negative pre-gain) and replaygain.

My 5K isn't powerful enough to drive my Edition XS to a good listening volume with these enabled.

Sure, I noticed now that I tried the Deva Pro (which I still didn't return, so I can do some more experiments) with the V60.
Applying some EQ makes them significantly less loud. Well Neutron MP automatically reduces the gain even without AGP when I activate EQ, but still.
Btw, the V60 is at its limit despite 125mW power. But ok, the Deva are 18 Ohm and 93.5dB (the XS 92dB), the Arya Stealth will be easier.
Strangely enough, the iFi Go Link Max attached to the V60 gives more loudness despite being only 100mW.

I'll test the Arya with the V60 and the Go Link Max when they arrive tomorrow, and there I will know if the iFi Go Blu and the 5k will be enough or not.
I'm excited now.
Could be the coffee though.

 

[Brian Hall]

Not in my case, I'm mostly at home and mostly stationary, but yes, generally it is. Modern devices tend to be quite good there though.


My ears are allergic to IEMs.
What DAP do you have, what's its output power for 32 Ohm?

Hiby R6 III. I don't know the output power. I just know it will go louder than I would ever want with the Arya Stealth Magnet or the Sennheiser HD800S and of course with the IEMs I have.

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

Hiby R6 III. I don't know the output power. I just know it will go louder than I would ever want with the Arya Stealth Magnet or the Sennheiser HD800S and of course with the IEMs I have.

3.5 or 4.4 connector?
It should be 125mW for 3.5 and 405 for 4.4.

 

[Brian Hall]

3.5 or 4.4 connector?
It should be 125mW for 3.5 and 405 for 4.4.

I use the 3.5 connector for the Arya with an adapter. The cable as a 1/4" connector. I use a 4.4 balanced connector with the HD800S, HD650 and most of my IEMs.