I need advice (looking for new studio monitors).

[AnalogSteph]

The listening distance will be between 1m and 1.5m.

Then I would pay at least some attention to hiss levels.

Hiss List (S&R)

Lots of discussion about hiss lately, how perceptible or annoying it is, and if it matters. I've created a sheet with Sound & Recording measurements of hiss in active loudspeakers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n62hGAdKptSSKC74_fIT_R7DxFJ60YR2_O9C8x-vYQI/edit?usp=sharing Viewers can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Miguelón]

I didn't understood if your budget is for the whole setup or for the monitors alone.

Genelec 8331 are a dream for a mixer or a producer: coaxial, 3 way, the best DSP automatic room correction...

The only caveat is the price, 4.000€ the pair at Thomann: you will need a couple of subs to them.

 

[Liftro]

I didn't understood if your budget is for the whole setup or for the monitors alone.

Genelec 8331 are a dream for a mixer or a producer: coaxial, 3 way, the best DSP automatic room correction...

The only caveat is the price, 4.000€ the pair at Thomann: you will need a couple of subs to them.

Hi, this is for a complete setup: a pair of speakers plus a pair of subwoofers. I'm considering several options; the cheapest would be Kali speakers, but I could also go for Neumann KH120IIs if they're really worth it. I have experience with Neumann, as I previously owned the KH120A with KH750s and MA1s, and I consider them very good equipment in terms of sound quality. The thing is, Palmer's Orbit 11s have just been released, and they're an interesting option. I'm waiting for the Amirm to receive one so I can see if they're worth it. For the subwoofers, I was thinking about Arendal or RLS Speedwoofers. But I could also go for studio-grade subwoofers like Kali or other brands. I'd also use room correction equipment like Arc Studio or something similar. I could also opt for a closed-back system from Neumann or Genelec, but their subwoofers seem expensive for what they offer. Yes, that way it's easier: you set it up, take the measurements, and forget about it, but I think I could get good sound quality for less.

 

[Miguelón]

Hi, this is for a complete setup: a pair of speakers plus a pair of subwoofers. I'm considering several options; the cheapest would be Kali speakers, but I could also go for Neumann KH120IIs if they're really worth it. I have experience with Neumann, as I previously owned the KH120A with KH750s and MA1s, and I consider them very good equipment in terms of sound quality. The thing is, Palmer's Orbit 11s have just been released, and they're an interesting option. I'm waiting for the Amirm to receive one so I can see if they're worth it. For the subwoofers, I was thinking about Arendal or RLS Speedwoofers. But I could also go for studio-grade subwoofers like Kali or other brands. I'd also use room correction equipment like Arc Studio or something similar. I could also opt for a closed-back system from Neumann or Genelec, but their subwoofers seem expensive for what they offer. Yes, that way it's easier: you set it up, take the measurements, and forget about it, but I think I could get good sound quality for less.

In that case, if you want to play with the EQ by yourself and go analogue, consider the following:

A) Couple of Genelec 8030C, 1100€
B) Couple of SVS 2000 Pro, 2200€

Total is 3300€ with full spectrum covered.

You can replace A) by Neumann kh120 ii and not use MA1, the socond version is even better than the first.

SVS have not balanced inputs, but your room should be ok in size for unbalanced signal.

 

[Waxx]

Upgrading from a KH120A + subs is probally not really possible with your budget, those are among the better arround. The only way to upgrade is cardioid speakers like the Kii Three BXT or the D&D 8C, but those cost a lot more than your budget. Genelec is in the same league of monitors, different but not better. I would use that money for other stuff, acoustics or dsp. Most other monitors are not that good, and will be a downgrade if you ask me.

The KH120II is slightly better, but only very minimal. Not worht spending a lot of money on when you got the older ones if you ask me. The KH310 is a bit better, but also not that much that it will make a big difference in a small space. You could upgrade your room correction as the Neumann MA-1 is not top of the line, i know many who use Dirac or Trinitov in stead of that MA-1 with much better results. Especiall the Trinitov Nova does things no other dsp can do and makes a big difference say studio owners that i know who use it in their setup (independent of what speakers they use). When you go read on Gearspace (the old Gearslutz) about this device you will hear many say the same that it does make a big difference. That is probally the best investment you can do to make your monitoring better. Or save up for a cardioid setup but then you're more in the 20K to 30K section today.

 

[Jiraya369]

I think I didn't explain myself well. I had this system. I sold it because I needed money for an unexpected repair in the new house . Now that we're all furnished, it's time for me to have my own space again. The question is whether to go back to Neumann, for example, buying a KH120II and two KH750 subwoofers, even though the price is steep, or if something like a Kali IN8 2nd Wave plus a Kali WS12 2nd Wave plus some DSP would be enough for me?

If you are okay with manual eq/room correction

Ascilab F6B or C6B, paired with a Wiim Amp Ultra and 2 RSL Speedwoofer 12S.

The Wiim Amp Ultra has enough power to nuke your speakers, has the necessary bass management features like low pass and high pass as well. The Speedwoofer 12S, is by itself as strong as if not stronger than the Genelec 7070A subwoofer.

 

[Miguelón]

Ascilab F6B or C6B, paired with a Wiim Amp Ultra

I’m curious, are really that good?

Post Edited: sorry, I didn’t see the measurements: they ARE that good!

Do the Wiim Amp Ultra power 2 Ascilabs and 2 subs? I always went active and not very familiar with amps requirements for, let’s say, 86 dB @ 1m from 30 Hz.

 

[Liftro]

If you are okay with manual eq/room correction

Ascilab F6B or C6B, paired with a Wiim Amp Ultra and 2 RSL Speedwoofer 12S.

The Wiim Amp Ultra has enough power to nuke your speakers, has the necessary bass management features like low pass and high pass as well. The Speedwoofer 12S, is by itself as strong as if not stronger than the Genelec 7070A subwoofer.

Of course I was looking at Ascilab and also Audio First Design Cadentia 3, but I'm not sure if I can use them in near-field monitoring. My listening position will be between 1 and 1.5 meters, with additional listening at greater distances.

 

[Miguelón]

Of course I was looking at Ascilab and also Audio First Design Cadentia 3, but I'm not sure if I can use them in near-field monitoring. My listening position will be between 1 and 1.5 meters, with additional listening at greater distances.

Not well suited for nearfield, too much distance between domes… although spectacular measurements!

 

[Liftro]

Upgrading from a KH120A + subs is probally not really possible with your budget, those are among the better arround. The only way to upgrade is cardioid speakers like the Kii Three BXT or the D&D 8C, but those cost a lot more than your budget. Genelec is in the same league of monitors, different but not better. I would use that money for other stuff, acoustics or dsp. Most other monitors are not that good, and will be a downgrade if you ask me.

The KH120II is slightly better, but only very minimal. Not worht spending a lot of money on when you got the older ones if you ask me. The KH310 is a bit better, but also not that much that it will make a big difference in a small space. You could upgrade your room correction as the Neumann MA-1 is not top of the line, i know many who use Dirac or Trinitov in stead of that MA-1 with much better results. Especiall the Trinitov Nova does things no other dsp can do and makes a big difference say studio owners that i know who use it in their setup (independent of what speakers they use). When you go read on Gearspace (the old Gearslutz) about this device you will hear many say the same that it does make a big difference. That is probally the best investment you can do to make your monitoring better. Or save up for a cardioid setup but then you're more in the 20K to 30K section today.

I can't afford a system in this price range, nor these kinds of speakers. Maybe the day I win the lottery, who knows? I don't want to spend more than €1000 on each component, and less would be much better. I know what Neumann KH120 plus KH750 plus MA1 sound like; the question is, can two cheaper speakers, two subwoofers, and a room correction system compete with this sound quality? Will I really be able to notice the difference?

 

[Miguelón]

I can't afford a system in this price range, nor these kinds of speakers. Maybe the day I win the lottery, who knows? I don't want to spend more than €1000 on each component, and less would be much better. I know what Neumann KH120 plus KH750 plus MA1 sound like; the question is, can two cheaper speakers, two subwoofers, and a room correction system compete with this sound quality? Will I really be able to notice the difference?

That is more a room correction problem: if you're able to improve the MA-1 software by Dirac or even REW and manual correction, then you don't need kh750s.

The mentioned SVS 2000 pro or even the 1000 pro which is cheaper, will do the job equally as the Neumann ones.

 

[Mort]

Do the Wiim Amp Ultra power 2 Ascilabs and 2 subs

Just one sub.

Neumann KH120 plus KH750 plus MA1 sound like; the question is, can two cheaper speakers, two subwoofers, and a room correction system compete with this sound quality?

Those are $4k approx. Ascilab is best bet

You'll have to go up a few thousand to start to hear improvements I think, probably genelec ones for the soundstage clarity and bass integration.

 

[antcollinet]

For this reason, I think that perhaps a pair of subs of at least 12 inches is what I need.

Given this, and your current financial restrictions, for an alternative approach why not go for a budget pair of speakers for a starting point, combined with the subs you need.

Perhaps even something as budget as the Edifier Mr5 (<$300) which actually perform quite well, and have plenty power for nearfield. With most of the heavy lifting passed off to the subs, I suspect you'd get 95+% of the way to where you want to be, especially if you included an eq solution from the get go (Eg MiniDSP flex).

And at the price - if you decided to upgrade later you would lose very little at resale.

 

[Miguelón]

You'll have to go up a few thousand to start to hear improvements I think, probably genelec ones for the soundstage clarity and bass integration

You're thinking about 83x1 line with 7350 or 7360 subs, I guess....

 

[Karmacoma]

I can't afford a system in this price range, nor these kinds of speakers. Maybe the day I win the lottery, who knows? I don't want to spend more than €1000 on each component, and less would be much better. I know what Neumann KH120 plus KH750 plus MA1 sound like; the question is, can two cheaper speakers, two subwoofers, and a room correction system compete with this sound quality? Will I really be able to notice the difference?

The Jbl monitors with a bit of dsp do compete for a fraction of the price. The 308p mark II's+ Subs could be a good option. Not as good as Neumann's though, not sure how much of a difference you would hear, at some point you're gonna have to try for yourself to judge.

 

[Jiraya369]

Of course I was looking at Ascilab and also Audio First Design Cadentia 3, but I'm not sure if I can use them in near-field monitoring. My listening position will be between 1 and 1.5 meters, with additional listening at greater distances.

im using the ascilab c6b at 1.5m distance, you can use em without any issues till 1m distance and even at 0.7-0.8m distance they're good. Why? Because of the low crossover, it means that the more omnidirectional stuff is in the woofer, giving you the benefits of both

Audio first cadentia 3 is only good if you want a mid-farfield SPL monster. If you have subwoofers in the nearfield you will NOT need anything more than a C6B. Even till 90db it is good.

 

[Mort]

You're thinking about 83x1 line with 7350 or 7360 subs, I guess....

Right exactly. The 8331/7350/GLM can be found used in the US for $5k if you are persistent. $8k new.

 

[Jiraya369]

I’m curious, are really that good?

Post Edited: sorry, I didn’t see the measurements: they ARE that good!

Do the Wiim Amp Ultra power 2 Ascilabs and 2 subs? I always went active and not very familiar with amps requirements for, let’s say, 86 dB @ 1m from 30 Hz.

im using em, i see no flaws apart from not reaching to 20 hz, they're basically discount, passive Neumanns

I'm using the Topping Mini300 and it powers the speakers to loudness levels im uncomfy with at 50% of the knob, at 1.5m distance, I use it at 75% of the knob with a 10db bass shelf and still have loads of dynamic range.

In the nearfield you just do not need much power or loudness. For the average person that is. I get uncomfortable at 85-88 db and cant stand 88db+ spl sound levels. 68-78 db spl is my usual range, averaging around 75 or 76 db and jamming to 81-83 db when im feeling like i want to party.

Maybe I'm conservative in terms of loudness, maybe im not, im just giving you my experience.

 

[Waxx]

I can't afford a system in this price range, nor these kinds of speakers. Maybe the day I win the lottery, who knows? I don't want to spend more than €1000 on each component, and less would be much better. I know what Neumann KH120 plus KH750 plus MA1 sound like; the question is, can two cheaper speakers, two subwoofers, and a room correction system compete with this sound quality? Will I really be able to notice the difference?

I don't think you can really upgrade with speakers in the same price range, Ascilabs and Genelec in that pricerange are similar quality, and cheaper monitors, even nearfield and with dsp won't be better, they will be worse. The main thing to upgrade is the dsp, and maybe the subs altough the ones you have are good enough for the listening distance and integrate better with the speakers you have. If you can't afford a Trinitov, a MiniDSP flex with DIRAC may be what you need and that is under 1K (even for the balanced one). It's better than the MA-1 setup (altough that does not suck neighter). Your speakes, even if they are older, are among the best ones in their priceclass for nearfield monitors.

What may be bettern are the new Palmer Orbit 11's, but that is on paper as none were tested independently. They should be on the way to Amir for tests, but you will have to wait a bit untill those tests are done to see if the published specs are reality. But on paper they are a gamechanger and in your priceclass and a serious upgrade. Maybe you need to wait a bit untill those are tested here.

 

[Miguelón]

What may be bettern are the new Palmer Orbit 11

Tremendous specs, just red them at Thomann. They look as a subwoofer with a coaxial woofer-tweeter sticked



If AE53 works with SPDIF to XLR converter, I will purchase a unit and made measurements at my room (informal), but looks amazing.