I managed to lock the temptation door and throw away the key :)

[Oddball]

I am sharing my story, if for nothing else - for laughs . I was prone to seeking perfection and in relation to that spending (way) too much time tweaking my 9.4.4 system and constantly thinking of potential upgrades. It was probably beyond the word "hobby" and looking back probably not "healthy".

I overcomplicated my HT (first one in the signature), which proved to be a good and bad thing in the long run. Bad thing is that I spent too much time integrating and eventually gave up and called a professional calibrator to finish the job as I just got sick of spending my free time on (literally) endless tweaking. When he was done we reviewed so many graphs that I can't even remember the number and listened to some of alternatives to finally decide which one is the winner. Good thing is that I am now beyond any desire to upgrade any gear so this cured both my upgrade and tweak habits of the past.

First complication was to run LFE+Mains as I have 8 towers plus big center that reach down to 30-50hz at 95+dB with low distortion, so I wanted to use their output but also enforce low end with subs (4 of them) so that all bed channels are full range.

Second complication was to run LFE distribution to the same 8 towers (center was spared as busy enough) to further smooth overall bass response in their support range/SPL etc.

Third complication (and the easiest) to solve was to add a dedicated small sub to the center to reinforce the sub 100hz range, and gain a fine tuning tool to achieve preference over reference.

So after this tedious journey I am done tweaking and upgrading and enjoying my favourite movies and shows in peace like never before. If someone mentions REW, sorry ditched all the files so I can't potentially start wondering if I did the right thing. This is the lock the door and throw away the key point. Overall response from memory is pretty smooth in the low end to some +/- 1.5dB, phase and group delay are far from ideal but at the end not too bad, waterfalls charts are great until 30-ish hz but that's the room and that's good enough for me.

Some members might be more responsible in managing their approach to perfection with such large HT setup so kudos to them. This was my way.

 

[MattHooper]

Ha! I can vibe with this.

Perfectionism and obsession can work for some people. It has for me in some respects.

To swap perfectionism stories regarding two channel audio and Home Theatre here’s mine:

My two main hobbies have been high end audio two channel systems and Home Theatre.

In 2008 I got bitten by the Home Theatre projection bug, and so I wanted a projection based Home Theatre. The only room available was our front living room that I was using for two channel.

I decided that I wanted to maintain both the two channel system as I liked to approach that hobby, while in the same room also create a perfectionist level Home Theatre.

This was going to entail maintaining the two channel tower speakers in their positions, pulled well out into the room, and then integrating an entirely separate surround Home Theatre speaker system, giant projection screen, and a projector.

That is shoving a whole lot of technology into a living room, and it’s the first room you see entering the house. Yet I didn’t want a cluttered looking room.

In order to have the scale of sound I wanted for my Home Theatre I would have to use sizeable speakers… and yet the last thing I wanted was a room that looked “ crammed full of speakers” or other technology. I didn’t even want to see the projector. I want it as clean and normal as possible.

And yet as a “ Home Theatre perfectionist” I knew I wanted a room that would have “ Batcave level” light rejection for watching movies. Normally that entails painting all the walls and ceiling dark black, or even surrounding everything with black velvet (to cut reflections from the projection screen going onto the nearby services and reflecting back and washing out contrast).

On the other hand I wanted the room to look normal and bright and cheery.

How the hell to combine those two goals?

I also also wanted to have a completely flexible screen size, and shape, that I could alter based on the aspect ratio of any movie or any size I wanted to watch. So that was introducing the complexity of automated four-way masking around the screen.

I also wanted the room to be as acoustically great as it could be, both for Home Theatre and two channel, and yet I did not want to see any acoustic treatments, because I hate the way those pro/commercial looking pieces “ kill the domestic vibe” - I wanted it to feel homey and not like a mixing studio. How to achieve that? (I hired an architect and acoustician to help me out.)

And then I had all the source and amplification equipment for both Home Theatre system and my two channel system - since I wanted a sedate and uncluttered room, what was I going to do with all that equipment? It wouldn’t even even fit let alone look good.

So there were all sorts of complicated things. I was trying to achieve in one room, some of which were at odds with each other.

I spent two years or so designing it, obsessively working on this grotesque Rubiks cube of a problem.

And all the obsession paid off. In the end, I got absolutely every single thing I wanted to pretty much perfection.

The room was remodelled in a way that hides or disguises acoustic treatment - for instance A designed bulkhead build of the ceiling that is actually covered with stretched dark brown felt, which looks like a solid ceiling, but behind which is all sort of strategically placed acoustic treatment. As well, the dark brown felt rejects reflected light, which helps maintain image contrast when watching a movie. There’s also acoustic treatment hidden elsewhere in room corners, etc..

I have a wall sized projection screen that is surrounded by black velvet, and a four-way remote control automated masking system. With the press of a button, I can change the projected image size and screen size to whatever I want.

The Home Theatre speakers are covered with fitted black velvet covers (of the very blackest and most light absorbing velvet I tested) so that they visually melt away against the black velvet around the screen. Most people don’t even know those speakers exist in the room.

My projector is hidden behind the large custom built sectional sofa so it is out of sight until the Home Theatre system is turned on and the projector rises up on an automated lift to about 6 feet, and it turns on.

There’s a wall-to-wall brown shag rug which is comfortable and also helps reject light reflecting back onto the screen.

The walls are a cheery bright colour, so the room feels bright and inviting and normal. However, for watching a movie, Black velvet curtains are hidden in room corners and they can be pulled across every single wall, instantly turning the room into a black box - almost total light rejection, and total immersion as the room disappears, and maintaining the highest possible contrast in the image. (it takes about 40 seconds in total to pull the curtains).

My separate 2 channel speakers are pulled out into the room and dialled in exactly how I like them.

I run the Home Theatre system with a AVR, and my two channel system from tube amplifiers/digital/vinyl.

All the source and amps are in a separate room down the hall.

The av/living room has all sorts of different selectable, lighting modes for different moods and effects.

And all of it is controlled by an RTI remote control system, which squeezes an absolutely grotesque level of complicated stuff into easy remote control commands. Eg - pressing home theater “on” turns on all the HT equipment, raises the projector and turns it on, at the same time as lowering the electric blackout shades over the bay windows, turning the lights down low, ready to play any movie.

I can also when listening to two channel switch between sources and even switch between different pre-amplifiers on the fly.

So in the end, I got everything I want. It’s been about 15 years, the only thing I’ve changed has been the occasional projector upgrade, or trying out different 2 channel speakers. Other than that, the system has worked beautifully, and I am thrilled every time I use the system. Really the thrill just never diminishes.

Perfectionism and obsession for the win!

 

[Fahzz]

Did you lock yourself in or lock yourself out? LOL

 

[Oddball]

Did you lock yourself in or lock yourself out? LOL

Kind of both - which is the beauty of it. Locked in so can roam around

 

[unmutual]

Great stories! I am in the pre-obsessive phase of setting up my HT room. Cheap projector, used AVR and speakers, old sofa. It's doubling as guest room, so the main "acoustic treatment" is two spare beds. I can certainly envision this escalating expensively if my wife let's down her guard. I figure that after a while I could do some stealth upgrades. I really like MattHooper's concept of hidden acoustic panels in the ceiling!

 

[DVDdoug]

I pretty-much quit tweaking when I got my 1st CD player and gave-up vinyl. My last upgrade was several years when I built a pair of 15-inch subwoofers and went to 5.1. I really enjoy the surround but really have no urge for more channels.

It was probably beyond the word "hobby" and looking back probably not "healthy".

I consider it more of an "interest" than a hobby. The only part I've ever considered a hobby was when I've bult speakers or electronics.

And I suppose it's a hobby when I occasionally digitize and "clean-up" a record that's not available digitally, or when I make MP3s from concert DVDs (and a few Blu-Rays, and VHS before that.)

 

[rationaltime]

I am sharing my story, if for nothing else - for laughs . I was prone to seeking perfection and in relation to that spending (way) too much time tweaking my 9.4.4 system and constantly thinking of potential upgrades. It was probably beyond the word "hobby" and looking back probably not "healthy".

I overcomplicated my HT (first one in the signature), which proved to be a good and bad thing in the long run. Bad thing is that I spent too much time integrating and eventually gave up and called a professional calibrator to finish the job as I just got sick of spending my free time on (literally) endless tweaking. When he was done we reviewed so many graphs that I can't even remember the number and listened to some of alternatives to finally decide which one is the winner. Good thing is that I am now beyond any desire to upgrade any gear so this cured both my upgrade and tweak habits of the past.

First complication was to run LFE+Mains as I have 8 towers plus big center that reach down to 30-50hz at 95+dB with low distortion, so I wanted to use their output but also enforce low end with subs (4 of them) so that all bed channels are full range.

Second complication was to run LFE distribution to the same 8 towers (center was spared as busy enough) to further smooth overall bass response in their support range/SPL etc.

Third complication (and the easiest) to solve was to add a dedicated small sub to the center to reinforce the sub 100hz range, and gain a fine tuning tool to achieve preference over reference.

So after this tedious journey I am done tweaking and upgrading and enjoying my favourite movies and shows in peace like never before. If someone mentions REW, sorry ditched all the files so I can't potentially start wondering if I did the right thing. This is the lock the door and throw away the key point. Overall response from memory is pretty smooth in the low end to some +/- 1.5dB, phase and group delay are far from ideal but at the end not too bad, waterfalls charts are great until 30-ish hz but that's the room and that's good enough for me.

Some members might be more responsible in managing their approach to perfection with such large HT setup so kudos to them. This was my way.

This appears to be near audio perfection.

What music do you listen to that makes the system response matter?

 

[Titurel]

The last OSX update (15.4.1), which included a new Safari, blew up the web interface with my Lyngdorf MP40 2.1 and put my machine in some weird sort of lock down (limited functionality). Fortunately, the folks at Lyngdorf were very quick getting back to me with a solution. The system's back up and running, and there's nothing like getting your favorite Russian Detective Shows back to put your life in perspective.

 

[Oddball]

This appears to be near audio perfection.

What music do you listen to that makes the system response matter?

Sadly, not much music at this time, especially not critical listening. Mostly HT use. But it will come back, had such periods before as well. Tuning the response was more of a challenge as the gear itself deserves it.

As you noted, we can get near perfection, but probably not to perfection. That last step is just too demanding and best to know when you are near enough and enjoy whatever is that strikes your fancy.

 

[Oddball]

Ha! I can vibe with this.

Perfectionism and obsession for the win!

Quite a story and thanks for posting. Glad that it worked out the way you wanted.

Around that time I also started planning my first serious HT but with much less expectations. It ended up quite well. I was more obsessed with video though as most of the movies were still in DVD format so HTPC and endless FFD Show tweaks were in vogue to fill in the gaps for projection on drop-down 120" screen. All the audio gear from that HT (sans the sub) is still part of my system till now.

Loved that room despite all imperfections .

 

[kolestonin]

I am somehow on the same boat, with waaayyyy less equipment gladly, but I don't know if the most frustrating thing is the journey or the upcoming disembarkation moment.
Meaning that I seek the perfect sound but I am also afraid of the day you describe as relieving. When you chase your Ithaca there are high chances you will find it one day. When you chase an utopia on the other hand you know you will never find it. You make one step closer to it, and the utopia moves two steps away from you. You make two steps, and the utopia does 4. But by chasing it you are in constant motion.
At least I don't own a house. So I can use my savings to buy new equipment but most importantly change apartment when I reach 'perfection' and start from scratch

 

[egellings]

Sadly, not much music at this time, especially not critical listening. Mostly HT use. But it will come back, had such periods before as well. Tuning the response was more of a challenge as the gear itself deserves it.

As you noted, we can get near perfection, but probably not to perfection. That last step is just too demanding and best to know when you are near enough and enjoy whatever is that strikes your fancy.

Perfection is an asymptote that you never reach, sort of like log(x) never reaching the Y axis, no matter how far down the Y you go. You just get closer and closer, forever.

 

[risandipra]

Ha! I can vibe with this.

Perfectionism and obsession can work for some people. It has for me in some respects.

To swap perfectionism stories regarding two channel audio and Home Theatre here’s mine:

My two main hobbies have been high end audio two channel systems and Home Theatre.

In 2008 I got bitten by the Home Theatre projection bug, and so I wanted a projection based Home Theatre. The only room available was our front living room that I was using for two channel.

I decided that I wanted to maintain both the two channel system as I liked to approach that hobby, while in the same room also create a perfectionist level Home Theatre.

This was going to entail maintaining the two channel tower speakers in their positions, pulled well out into the room, and then integrating an entirely separate surround Home Theatre speaker system, giant projection screen, and a projector.

That is shoving a whole lot of technology into a living room, and it’s the first room you see entering the house. Yet I didn’t want a cluttered looking room.

In order to have the scale of sound I wanted for my Home Theatre I would have to use sizeable speakers… and yet the last thing I wanted was a room that looked “ crammed full of speakers” or other technology. I didn’t even want to see the projector. I want it as clean and normal as possible.

And yet as a “ Home Theatre perfectionist” I knew I wanted a room that would have “ Batcave level” light rejection for watching movies. Normally that entails painting all the walls and ceiling dark black, or even surrounding everything with black velvet (to cut reflections from the projection screen going onto the nearby services and reflecting back and washing out contrast).

On the other hand I wanted the room to look normal and bright and cheery.

How the hell to combine those two goals?

I also also wanted to have a completely flexible screen size, and shape, that I could alter based on the aspect ratio of any movie or any size I wanted to watch. So that was introducing the complexity of automated four-way masking around the screen.

I also wanted the room to be as acoustically great as it could be, both for Home Theatre and two channel, and yet I did not want to see any acoustic treatments, because I hate the way those pro/commercial looking pieces “ kill the domestic vibe” - I wanted it to feel homey and not like a mixing studio. How to achieve that? (I hired an architect and acoustician to help me out.)

And then I had all the source and amplification equipment for both Home Theatre system and my two channel system - since I wanted a sedate and uncluttered room, what was I going to do with all that equipment? It wouldn’t even even fit let alone look good.

So there were all sorts of complicated things. I was trying to achieve in one room, some of which were at odds with each other.

I spent two years or so designing it, obsessively working on this grotesque Rubiks cube of a problem.

And all the obsession paid off. In the end, I got absolutely every single thing I wanted to pretty much perfection.

The room was remodelled in a way that hides or disguises acoustic treatment - for instance A designed bulkhead build of the ceiling that is actually covered with stretched dark brown felt, which looks like a solid ceiling, but behind which is all sort of strategically placed acoustic treatment. As well, the dark brown felt rejects reflected light, which helps maintain image contrast when watching a movie. There’s also acoustic treatment hidden elsewhere in room corners, etc..

I have a wall sized projection screen that is surrounded by black velvet, and a four-way remote control automated masking system. With the press of a button, I can change the projected image size and screen size to whatever I want.

The Home Theatre speakers are covered with fitted black velvet covers (of the very blackest and most light absorbing velvet I tested) so that they visually melt away against the black velvet around the screen. Most people don’t even know those speakers exist in the room.

My projector is hidden behind the large custom built sectional sofa so it is out of sight until the Home Theatre system is turned on and the projector rises up on an automated lift to about 6 feet, and it turns on.

There’s a wall-to-wall brown shag rug which is comfortable and also helps reject light reflecting back onto the screen.

The walls are a cheery bright colour, so the room feels bright and inviting and normal. However, for watching a movie, Black velvet curtains are hidden in room corners and they can be pulled across every single wall, instantly turning the room into a black box - almost total light rejection, and total immersion as the room disappears, and maintaining the highest possible contrast in the image. (it takes about 40 seconds in total to pull the curtains).

My separate 2 channel speakers are pulled out into the room and dialled in exactly how I like them.

I run the Home Theatre system with a AVR, and my two channel system from tube amplifiers/digital/vinyl.

All the source and amps are in a separate room down the hall.

The av/living room has all sorts of different selectable, lighting modes for different moods and effects.

And all of it is controlled by an RTI remote control system, which squeezes an absolutely grotesque level of complicated stuff into easy remote control commands. Eg - pressing home theater “on” turns on all the HT equipment, raises the projector and turns it on, at the same time as lowering the electric blackout shades over the bay windows, turning the lights down low, ready to play any movie.

I can also when listening to two channel switch between sources and even switch between different pre-amplifiers on the fly.

So in the end, I got everything I want. It’s been about 15 years, the only thing I’ve changed has been the occasional projector upgrade, or trying out different 2 channel speakers. Other than that, the system has worked beautifully, and I am thrilled every time I use the system. Really the thrill just never diminishes.

Perfectionism and obsession for the win!

Very nice experience, @MattHooper ; do you put your LCR behind the screen? [I reluctant to use projector in the dedicated room due to size of the room, and since in my study room, I found the Center is better above the computer display monitor, and the LR inline, aimed down ear direction, (I run 7.1 for stereo up-mixing)], and your surround channel speakers, is it covered by the curtains during movies? Thanks for sharing

 

[MattHooper]

Very nice experience, @MattHooper ; do you put your LCR behind the screen? [I reluctant to use projector in the dedicated room due to size of the room, and since in my study room, I found the Center is better above the computer display monitor, and the LR inline, aimed down ear direction, (I run 7.1 for stereo up-mixing)],

No, I didn’t use an acoustically transparent screen and I also didn’t actually want speakers behind the screen for several reasons. One of them is that this room is right below our master bedroom, and my wife often goes to sleep earlier than I do, and I didn’t want the speaker speakers carrying most of the signal radiating up the walls into the bedroom above. Plus, I prefer the speakers being external to the screen for other reasons. The compromise of course is the centre channel. However, I have my big centre channel carefully aimed up towards the listening position and on some isolators, and I get a nice coherent sound across the L/C/R speakers.

As I mentioned, the screen is surrounded by black velvet masking which can move in and out, and I built out a little bit of stage area on the floor beneath the screen, also covered in black velvet, so the speakers could sit on there and tie everything together visually.
Since I tested a variety of black velvet and shows the absolute darkest and most light absorbing, it’s incredibly dark to the eye and the speakers completely disappear against the black velvet stage and screen surrounding. You can only really see them in bright daylight.

Here’s a photo in bright daylight a little bit over exposed so you can make out the L/C/R
black velvet covered speakers sitting on the short stage area:

This photo was also taken during the day, and you can just barely see the speaker grills of the L channel in the dark behind my Thiel speakers:

A little darker lighting, with my Joseph speakers in the forefront:

In regards to my surround channel speakers, if I understand you’re referring to the fact that I pull black velvet curtains along my walls for watching movies and therefore wondering if they cover up my surrounds.

The black velvet curtains I pull across my wall are acoustically transparent. Just in case, I actually did cut outs for my surround side channels. So you can see here in the daylight shot, one of my side channels visible on the wall to the top left:

And with the black velvet curtain pulled across the wall, you can see there’s a cut out for that speaker:

Same goes for the opposite wall.

There are rear surround speakers behind the viewing sofa. When I pull the black curtain along the back wall behind the viewing sofa to create a full “ black box” I didn’t bother doing cut outs for those because the curtains are acoustically, transparent enough to not bother. Here’s a flash photo of when the curtain is also pulled across behind the sofa.

(the projector is normally stored behind the sofa out of sight on a telescoping lift, and when the home theatre mode is activated, it lifts up to about 6 feet high and starts projecting the image):

Daytime you can see the cutout for the projector. (I don’t normally watch in the daytime, but there are automated blackout shades that go down for when I do):

Another trick is that I don’t want to see my reflective two channel speakers either during a movie. I want everything to disappear. So when I pull the black velvet curtain across the wall, I pull it over my two channel floor standing speakers as well. You can see the velvet curtain has been pulled over the far speaker in this shot using a flash:

Most of the lights out with all speakers covered:

 

[risandipra]

Here’s a photo in bright daylight a little bit over exposed so you can make out the L/C/R
black velvet covered speakers sitting on the short stage area:
[edited]

In regards to my surround channel speakers, if I understand you’re referring to the fact that I pull black velvet curtains along my walls for watching movies and therefore wondering if they cover up my surrounds.
[edited]

Yes, I wonder if somehow you make the cutouts for the speaker to be exposed and how your LCR is set up.

A VERY BIG THANKS to you, @MattHooper for kindly share your private space publicly (as we know all, A picture is worth a thousand words, but still I hesitate).
(FYI, I planned more or less the same thing for the ceiling design)

Is there any consideration you might like to share, about the latest sound format utilizing height channel speakers for your, future upgrades, maybe?

 

[MattHooper]

Is there any consideration you might like to share, about the latest sound format utilizing height channel speakers for your, future upgrades, maybe?

I did this renovation 16 years ago. Designed for 7.0 (I’ve never wanted a subwoofer).
The one major issue is that the bulkhead/fabric design makes adding ceiling speakers more tricky. I haven’t bothered to go down through of adding Atmos speakers due to the hassle. For now I’m still good with 7.0.

 

[Gary_G]

WOW !

 

[MattHooper]

(FYI, I planned more or less the same thing for the ceiling design)

Sorry, I forgot to address this. I didn’t even include a picture that showed much of the fabric coloured bulkhead we built. One thing I like about it is that it looks like a completely solid ceiling. You probably wouldn’t know that it was actually stretched fabric unless you were told.

Here’s a couple of pictures:

With Thiel speakers:

With Joseph speakers:

 

[risandipra]

Thanks for the thorough replies, @MattHooper ... really lovely and cozy room

What reciever/separates that you are uusing for the HT setup? Is it still the same as 16 years ago? You said earlier that the projectors went through upgrades.

I still use my HK5550 from 2009 in the study room, and enjoy the Logic7 and it's DSP.

I'm beginning to wonder why some older electronics seems more durable

 

[risandipra]

Btw, @Oddball ... in your room, previously while the speakers were still set as full range, do you found that the sound is worse when the source file is compressed ?