I know this site believes dacs make very little difference, but what about streamers?

[oleg87]

Assuming no DSP or serious implementation errors, then no.
If you listen for a difference without controlling for imagination, you will likely hear the same sorts of differences you hear between DACs.

 

[Beave]

I suggest reading OP's posting history before putting much effort into a response.

For example, see here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-wireless-usb-dac-2-review.34460/post-1244061

"People can believe whatever they want about objective measurements, but until i hear about any measurements thtat actually determine how well instrument separation and soundstage is, i believe in both objective and subjective impressions, and it is not just bias. Even my wife who never does critical listening, she immediately stated that when i introduced either of the 2 amps mentioned that she could hear a dramatic difference."

 

[diddley]

I suggest reading OP's posting history before putting much effort into a response.

For example, see here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-wireless-usb-dac-2-review.34460/post-1244061

"People can believe whatever they want about objective measurements, but until i hear about any measurements thtat actually determine how well instrument separation and soundstage is, i believe in both objective and subjective impressions, and it is not just bias. Even my wife who never does critical listening, she immediately stated that when i introduced either of the 2 amps mentioned that she could hear a dramatic difference."

i had that feeling that something was fishy about the OP

 

[mikemcsw]

If you are not here to argue that point, why is it the first sentence in your post?

This is a public forum. You cannot control what other people think or do. If you introduce a subject in a post and state your position in relation to it, you have opened the door to reactions from other people.

If you want to discuss streamers, then it's best that you confine the post (and your comments) to streamers.

Jim

yes, you are correct...it is not the main topic, and people are free to voice their opinions (and is actually appreciated)..... I have already come to my own conclusions, and people are free and encouraged to discuss their views regarding dacs or other hardware they believe do/don't make a difference...but my personal "MAIN" interest remain about streamers.

 

[BDWoody]

i believe are differences in DACS, but I am not hear to argue that point.

Then don't keep bringing it up.

do you get title "forum donor" as a "troll"....ROFL Thanks for your wise contribution to the thread.

Let's not start the rolling around just yet. How about a better attempt at good faith discussion.

 

[mikemcsw]

I would expect the differences between various streamers would be more to do with their operation- ease of use, glitches when changing tracks/sampling rates, volume adjustments, etc.

that is also my opinion. after i try the 4 i have, i am hoping i can find one that i like using and that can be used with a web browser. Main reason being i hate using cell phones and prefer to use my desktop computer....so if one has a decent interface that can be used with a web browser, that would be the winner. I am mostly curious if anyone believes they can hear differences between digital sources.

 

[mikemcsw]

Then don't keep bringing it up.



Let's not start the rolling around just yet. How about a better attempt at good faith discussion.

This is a good faith discussion. I am looking to see if anyone believes they can hear a difference between different digital sources and what their experience was if any.
I did not write a one sentence worthless post which was a personal attack on me. What is your opinion if i may ask? Do you believe all dacs sound the same, and what about streamers? I can "buy" the concept digital streamers "should" sound the same, where I am confident that a digital to analog conversion can and do sound different.

 

[BDWoody]

I am mostly curious if anyone believes they can hear differences between digital sources.

So if someone believes they can, would you ask for any evidence?

You are here making a point of telling us that you doubt much of what is said here, but want input on streamers? Why believe anything here?

Another option would be to learn how these things actually work, so you aren't quite as vulnerable to the propaganda.

 

[BDWoody]

Do you believe all dacs sound the same, and what about streamers?

That's far too broad, so no, I don't believe that. I don't believe many who have been here more than a minute would make that claim.

 

[mikemcsw]

its because some of us also believe in moon landings and a round earth and... climate change... <shock horror>

I am not clear by your post if you believe that streamers can sound different? Maybe you believe dacs may sound different but not streamers?

 

[mikemcsw]

That's far too broad, so no, I don't believe that. I don't believe many who have been here more than a minute would make that claim.

Hence the reason for my post. I haven't been "reading" the forums here for a couple of years, where the last time i did, it seemed an overwhelming amount of people believe that most dacs sound the same. Perhaps views have shifted. Have you personally heard differences in sound quality regarding different streamers?

 

[mikemcsw]

So if someone believes they can, would you ask for any evidence?

You are here making a point of telling us that you doubt much of what is said here, but want input on streamers? Why believe anything here?

Another option would be to learn how these things actually work, so you aren't quite as vulnerable to the propaganda.

I want to know their experiences..i am not looking for any "evidence". I have spent a great amount of time trying different dacs, i have no time comparing streamers, and i want to hear opinions, not evidence. What is your experience regarding streamers, if you have any experience comparing?

 

[mikemcsw]

So if someone believes they can, would you ask for any evidence?

You are here making a point of telling us that you doubt much of what is said here, but want input on streamers? Why believe anything here?

Another option would be to learn how these things actually work, so you aren't quite as vulnerable to the propaganda.

YOU>>>You are here making a point of telling us that you doubt much of what is said here, but want input on streamers? Why believe anything here?
I don't have to agree with a majority, but appreciate all input...because I do agree with some, and all input is appreciated.

YOU>>> Another option would be to learn how these things actually work, so you aren't quite as vulnerable to the propaganda.
I am not confident that if i understood the workings better than even you, that i could say with 100% confidence how power and interfaces could affect sound quality. I have heard many arguments over the years, even among "bright engineers", where i could ever debate supporting either side, even if i spent years. Personally i "believe" i can hear differences between USB and Optical, where if noise and interfaces couldn't make a difference,then that doesn't support my own experience.

 

[BDWoody]

it seemed an overwhelming amount of people believe that most dacs sound the same. Perhaps views have shifted.

I believe most DACs would be nigh unto impossible to tell apart under actual controlled testing conditions (using real music with real speakers or headphones, with comparable filters and no gain riding), as opposed to just casual listening sessions, almost guaranteed to cause people to perceive differences where none would exist. At some point, the difference in the signal coming out of the DAC is small enough that there is just nowhere for an audible difference to hide.

Let's say you have two buildings in front of you, and one is 1km high, and the other is 1km + 1mm high. That's roughly what we are talking about in terms of how big these differences are between most fundamentally competent DACs.

Claims are easy.

Streamers, assuming they are competent and aren't futzing with the signal, are not going to change the signal, so there won't be a difference to be heard (unless of course people just do uncontrolled listening comparisons). See any other forum and you can read all about what people hear between streamers. You will also find NO evidence to support those claims.

 

[mikemcsw]

My point in mentioning DACS in the conversation, is that i believe it is ok to disagree with a majority, trying to encourage input on streamers, even if you are in a minority.
My "Guess" is that the vast Majority of people believe DACS and Streamers mostly sound the same with very little discernment...but that i am sure there are many (but minority) that believe schiits or chords (or others), may sound different than cheap ess dacs. My "GUESS" also is that there are even less people that believe a digital streamer can sound different. I am mostly looking for any input if anyone has any experience that believes one streamer sounds better than another that they have compared. Personally, I am confident that some dacs sound different than others, where I am less likely to believe a streamer can sound different, provided the same interface is used.

 

[JeremyFife]

Sticking to the question;
All bit perfect streamers must, by definition, sound the same.

Streamers that re-sample will measure differently. Some might sound different but that would have to be verified with controlled listening, which hardly ever seems to happen. I'd expect most measurable differences to be inaudible.
Streamers with DSP (and with processing applied) absolutely should sound different - that's the point.

If another component changes the signal then that's not related to the streamer and not relevant.

 

[DSJR]

Hence the reason for my post. I haven't been "reading" the forums here for a couple of years, where the last time i did, it seemed an overwhelming amount of people believe that most dacs sound the same. Perhaps views have shifted. Have you personally heard differences in sound quality regarding different streamers?

I'm going to suggest that the 'differences' that many subjectivists claim to hear are level related (you'd be amazed by this aspect once you've shown yourself that exactly matching levels removes practically all perceived differences) and also, the visual and tactile aspects determine our opinions quite often, the 'sound itself' actually being a non-event once personal opinions influenced by the other senses come into force. As said above, in your case with four boxes to choose from, use the one which feels and looks best and forget the audio 'hobby' side of things. These things are tools for the job, nothing more and NONE of them have magical properties to transport you to another sonic plane, whatever the advertising blurb or a typical dealer will tell you

 

[Purité Audio]

My point in mentioning DACS in the conversation, is that i believe it is ok to disagree with a majority, trying to encourage input on streamers, even if you are in a minority.
My "Guess" is that the vast Majority of people believe DACS and Streamers mostly sound the same with very little discernment...but that i am sure there are many (but minority) that believe schiits or chords (or others), may sound different than cheap ess dacs. My "GUESS" also is that there are even less people that believe a digital streamer can sound different. I am mostly looking for any input if anyone has any experience that believes one streamer sounds better than another that they have compared. Personally, I am confident that some dacs sound different than others, where I am less likely to believe a streamer can sound different, provided the same interface is used.

It’s really easy for you to decide, conduct your own level matched and unsighted comparisons.
It is possible that a really poorly engineered dac might sound different.
Keith

 

[BDWoody]

So, I think the question has been answered adequately. Fishing for people who will claim to hear differences isn't really what this place is about.

There are plenty of threads that can help you understand how these things work and under what conditions one might find differences that would be significant enough to be audible under different circumstances.

You are so busy reinforcing how you believe you hear differences that it doesn't seem you are processing much else of what is being said, so rather than just go around and around, we'll close this thread with an encouragement to put together some controlled testing for yourself.

Edit: Unlocked briefly for an addition.

 

[DonH56]

I do not have much experience with streamers, but the only times clear differences were heard it was because the streamer's isolation was ^%$^$ up -- err, "poorly implemented". Nothing to do with the digital side (unless additional processing was applied as mentioned earlier), but rather the Ethernet or USB input/output was not properly isolated, and a ground loop or just a high level of noise coupling occurred. The result was a buzzing or harsh, raspy noise at a low level readily detectable (and measurable) using a low-level test signal (at the time, some years ago, we had a test of stepped -60 dBFS to -90 dBFS 1 kHz sine waves ripped from a test CD). It was usually there whether or not signal was present, but some devices muted the output when there was no digital input data. That said it could also be poor implementation in the device (e.g. DAC) receiving the output from the streamer.

This IME is a common reason for the different "sound" in streamers, switches and such, and leads to false conclusions on both sides. Bad streamer!

FWIWFM - Don