I just heard the future of Magnepan! We all win...

[Ahmad Lee]

The observations and conclusions from a first time poster!

Above all, my thanks to Audio Science Review and it's tolerant and inclusive welcome to posts on "audio and other topics related to our interest" and the directive "to have fun, be ready to be teased, and not take online life too seriously".

My post was directed to owners of Magnepan speakers, a unique, tortured lot amongst audiophiles, addicted to the Maggies' distinctive sound all the while subjected to their frustrating limitations of overwhelming size, room demands, placement challenge, bass limitations, power requirement and their attractive spouse-pleasing nature (not). I should know, having been one of those frustrated owners for over 45 years.

The goal of my post was simple!

I was excited to share the great news with owners that Magnepan is poised to introduce a new drivers+DSP bass solution to their flagship 30.7 speaker. I had recently auditioned a prototype that could, in one fall swoop, deliver the perennially missing bass AND resolve virtually ALL our frustrations above. The prototype sounded exceptional, as confirmed by the only available test equipment to me that eve - my trustworthy ears.

The post also speculated on the "transformative" impact this could have on the company, if they extended it down and throughout their product line, as well as the opportunity for this small company to seize the potential to become a larger player in the growing audio market.

Marketing success is now only up to Magnepan! Let's wish them well...

As for my own conclusions...

-Posting is great!
-Thank you for all the "likes".
-I found the extensive discussion amongst Maggie owners to be rewarding.
-It was encouraging that a few "narrative- distorting" initial posts by non-Maggie owners soon turned productive.
-In a tip of the hat to ASR's value, I walk away from my first post appreciating its members and wiser.

Cheers!!!

 

[LTig]

[..]
I was excited to share the great news with owners that Magnepan is poised to introduce a new drivers+DSP bass solution to their flagship 30.7 speaker. I had recently auditioned a prototype that could, in one fall swoop, deliver the perennially missing bass AND resolve virtually ALL our frustrations above. The prototype sounded exceptional, as confirmed by the only available test equipment to me that eve - my trustworthy ears.

IME you should not trust your ears (well, hearing sense) longer than a few seconds ... at least I don't trust mine knowing how they have fooled me more than once. And I'm not alone, see here.

[..]
-It was encouraging that a few "narrative- distorting" initial posts by non-Maggie owners soon turned productive.

I had Maggies (1.6) for 13 years before I switched to active studio monitors 15 years ago. If I issued any critic (can't remember) it was probably well funded.

 

[Ahmad Lee]

IME you should not trust your ears (well, hearing sense) longer than a few seconds ... at least I don't trust mine knowing how they have fooled me more than once. And I'm not alone, see here.

I had Maggies (1.6) for 13 years before I switched to active studio monitors 15 years ago. If I issued any critic (can't remember) it was probably well funded.

Science hasn't fully unravelled the mystery of our auditory system and many of us are genetically or environmentally predisposed to hearing loss. I, for one, am enjoying the dulling of the high end, the gift of ringing, both bestowed upon me by my mother, while I await modern science's miracle of hair restoration. No, not that type of hair restoration...

There is good news, however, thanks to our wonderful brain and the plasticity that remains active into old age - my remaining "hearing" has actually improved. At age 50 I returned to playing piano, having left it, bored, at the age of 10. First of all, I should have listened to my parents. Mastering the piano while young is achievable. Doing so later in life is not. Alas, despite my daily commitment, I will die long before I come close to learning this damn instrument.

But, there is an upside in this story. Within a couple of years of playing the piano, I began to notice the not so subtle differences between pianos (I upgraded thrice), within 10 years I could dissect the notes in chords, and 15 years into this chore, my processor (Brain) has clearly enriched my remaining hearing, even while it's sensors (ears) are slowly failing it in the higher end.

All this to come back to the Magnepan focus group in Pittsburgh, and the introduction of a 30.7 prototype with a new base solution. If they were introducing a "new and improved" ribbon tweeter, I, like many present, would have been SOOL. Thankfully, it was (mainly) about the lower registers.

True, the Pittsburgh event wasn't a controlled A-B test. But having auditioned the original 30.7 and intimately familiar with the 20.7 at home, my ears easily heard the depth, snap, and exciting dynamics of their new bass in that cavernous, harsh, and untreated environment. Not at all like struggling to reveal the subtle difference between two similarly performing DAC's. Far more...

But I promise you, should "my" early results be proven wrong in subsequent and more rigorous testing between the two versions of Magnepan's 30.7, I'll respectfully eat crow... Bets anyone?....

Onto your final comment...

Even if you did criticize Magnepan, you simply joined a frustrated club. Welcome!

Far from an apologist for Magnepan, I am perhaps their greatest critic. I may be polite while going about it, but while their product was of great potential, they repeatedly missed many opportunities to redesign, repackage, and better market their line. And while I believe their 30.7 prototype's bass IS a paradigm shift, I am concerned they are not up to the challenge of implementing the product and corporate transformation its success demands.

And yet, I do hope they prove us doubters wrong!!!

 

[josh358]

But, there is an upside in this story. Within a couple of years of playing the piano, I began to notice the not so subtle differences between pianos (I upgraded thrice), within 10 years I could dissect the notes in chords, and 15 years into this chore, my processor (Brain) has clearly enriched my remaining hearing, even while it's sensors (ears) are slowly failing it in the higher end.

Research on musicians has confirmed your impression.

And while I believe their 30.7 prototype's bass IS a paradigm shift, I am concerned they are not up to the challenge of implementing the product and corporate transformation its success demands.

They can certainly make the speaker. The panel is routine, and anyone with a CNC machine and a soldering station could make the woofers, assuming they OEM the dynamic drivers. The challenge will be in producing the DSP and amplifier, since their in-house engineering and manufacturing capability is naturally enough focused on designing and manufacturing loudspeakers. A number of speaker manufacturers have found themselves in this position as technology has advanced. Fortunately, there are OEM DSP and amplifier solutions that can be customized to do what they've done in the lab. If they had to design those from scratch and do more than the final assembly (cabinet, etc.), it would significantly delay the introduction.

 

[LTig]

Research on musicians has confirmed your impression.

Same here. Used to play the drums when I was young, and listening to a lot of music of all kinds I'm still able to detect if some instrument or singer is out of tune or out of rythm where younger ears don't here this. Of course this happens in the lower audible range (below 5 kHz).

They can certainly make the speaker. The panel is routine, and anyone with a CNC machine and a soldering station could make the woofers, assuming they OEM the dynamic drivers. The challenge will be in producing the DSP and amplifier, since their in-house engineering and manufacturing capability is naturally enough focused on designing and manufacturing loudspeakers. A number of speaker manufacturers have found themselves in this position as technology has advanced. Fortunately, there are OEM DSP and amplifier solutions that can be customized to do what they've done in the lab. If they had to design those from scratch and do more than the final assembly (cabinet, etc.), it would significantly delay the introduction.

The future of speakers is active, that's quite sure for me. There are too many important things which cannot be done with passive speakers. Fortunately (as you wrote) even small manufacturers (see e.g. Kii and Grimm Audio) are now able to buy DSP boards, power supplies and power amps so it's just a matter of waking up. I fear that those companies which do not realize this may see a bleak future in the long run.

 

[josh358]

Same here. Used to play the drums when I was young, and listening to a lot of music of all kinds I'm still able to detect if some instrument or singer is out of tune or out of rythm where younger ears don't here this. Of course this happens in the lower audible range (below 5 kHz).

The future of speakers is active, that's quite sure for me. There are too many important things which cannot be done with passive speakers. Fortunately (as you wrote) even small manufacturers (see e.g. Kii and Grimm Audio) are now able to buy DSP boards, power supplies and power amps so it's just a matter of waking up. I fear that those companies which do not realize this may see a bleak future in the long run.

I suspect that has more to do with purist customers than with the desire of the speaker manufacturers, who surely know that DSP and dedicated amplification yields the best results. Some audiophiles don't want to use anything that didn't exist in 1950, or want to bring their own amplification to the table, and the manufacturers don't want to alienate them.

So you can buy a $50 Bluetooth speaker with DSP, but not a $100,000 Magico or Wilson. Go figure. (That said, I do know a number of audiophiles who use DSP solutions -- MiniDSP, Acourate, Dirac, what have you. They're just in the minority, and from the bottom line perspective, that's what counts.)

 

[LTig]

I suspect that has more to do with purist customers than with the desire of the speaker manufacturers, who surely know that DSP and dedicated amplification yields the best results. Some audiophiles don't want to use anything that didn't exist in 1950, or want to bring their own amplification to the table, and the manufacturers don't want to alienate them.

I'm not so sure about those purist customers. Sure, they exist, but how did they become purist in the first place? IMV highend companies and audiophile dealers (and do not forget the audiophile press) together are the cause, both groups (rightfully) fearing a loss of sales. No more fancy speaker cables to sell, no more big power amps required to drive exotic loads.

So you can buy a $50 Bluetooth speaker with DSP, but not a $100,000 Magico or Wilson. Go figure. (That said, I do know a number of audiophiles who use DSP solutions -- MiniDSP, Acourate, Dirac, what have you. They're just in the minority, and from the bottom line perspective, that's what counts.)

Well, a Kii Three BXT, a Grimm Audio LS1be/LS1s-dmf, a Neumann KH420/KH805 or a Backes&Müller easily reach into the 10 to 50 k$ range.

 

[josh358]

I'm not so sure about those purist customers. Sure, they exist, but how did they become purist in the first place? IMV highend companies and audiophile dealers (and do not forget the audiophile press) together are the cause, both groups (rightfully) fearing a loss of sales. No more fancy speaker cables to sell, no more big power amps required to drive exotic loads.

Well, a Kii Three BXT, a Grimm Audio LS1be/LS1s-dmf, a Neumann KH420/KH805 or a Backes&Müller easily reach into the 10 to 50 k$ range.

Well, it's interesting, isn't it -- I guess each group is watching the other. The manufacturer of a high end amplifier once told me that they tried making a budget version of their amplifier -- same amp, but without the costly aluminum front panel -- and nobody bought it. And there was that guy at McIntosh who said that the exotic wire in their speakers did nothing for the sound, but that they used it because customers insisted. And the press of course is writing about what interests audiophiles, while what interests audiophiles is influenced by the press. Add to that the fact that to survive these days manufacturers have to move into the luxury market because the middle class isn't buying, and that dealers are struggling to hang on and the sale of that absurdly overpriced mouse whisker cable may make the difference between doing so and not . . .

One of the things I like about Magnepan is that they refuse to play those games -- they won't put anything in their speakers if it hasn't been preferred by two listening panels in a blind test. That makes for a great price/performance ratio, but the business is changing -- can they survive in a market that increasingly depends on the upscale customer who demands exotic components and "audio jewelry" finishes?

 

[Deleted member 2944]

The future of speakers is active, that's quite sure for me. There are too many important things which cannot be done with passive speakers. Fortunately (as you wrote) even small manufacturers (see e.g. Kii and Grimm Audio) are now able to buy DSP boards, power supplies and power amps so it's just a matter of waking up. I fear that those companies which do not realize this may see a bleak future in the long run.

The future of speakers was active thirty years ago......yet here we are still with feet dragging, kicking and screaming in the "high-end" audio market. The entrenched ideas that still exist in the brain of the average audio manufacturer/dealer/audiophile still boggle my mind.

Dave.

 

[josh358]

The future of speakers was active thirty years ago......yet here we are still with feet dragging, kicking and screaming in the "high-end" audio market. The entrenched ideas that still exist in the brain of the average audio manufacturer/dealer/audiophile still boggle my mind.

Dave.

Couldn't agree more. The ads in Stereophile are like a nostalgia trip to 1980.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The future of speakers was active thirty years ago......yet here we are still with feet dragging, kicking and screaming in the "high-end" audio market. The entrenched ideas that still exist in the brain of the average audio manufacturer/dealer/audiophile still boggle my mind.

Dave.

Enthusiasts like dicking about with equipment more than listening to music so active speakers spoil the hobby for them.
Music lovers put up with a certain amount of dicking about with equipment to get the sound they want then listen happily for years.
Multiple boxes suit hifi enthusiasts, simpler systems suit music lovers better.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Historically, it's the other way around -- other manufacturers, including Apogee, were using the term "ribbon" to describe foil on mylar, so Wendell invented "quasi ribbon" to distinguish those designs from Magnepan's aluminum tweeter ribbon.

Not so.
Historically ribbon speakers were a ribbon of foil in a magnetic field (decades before Apogee existed). Think Decca Kelly ribbon and the Quad ribbon which predated their electrostatic speaker.
I believe the original Apogee had a true ribbon tweeter and a sliced foil on plastic one sided ribbon-like bass panel.
I had Divas and their tweeter was a pure ribbon, the mid range had 3 strips of ally foil bonded to mylar suspended between pole pieces so all in a magnetic field, iirc, and the bass was single sided (magnets behind panel) with slit foil on mylar moving element.

I am not familiar with the Magnepan designs, I had always assumed their "true ribbon" was one, not multiple runs of foil on plastic.

 

[Frank Dernie]

And there was that guy at McIntosh who said that the exotic wire in their speakers did nothing for the sound, but that they used it because customers insisted

Harbeth were the same. The proprietor explained that fancy wires made no difference and since they are an easy load the amplifier makes no difference as long as it is powerful enough but the customers wouldn't accept it.

 

[josh358]

Not so.
Historically ribbon speakers were a ribbon of foil in a magnetic field (decades before Apogee existed). Think Decca Kelly ribbon and the Quad ribbon which predated their electrostatic speaker.
I believe the original Apogee had a true ribbon tweeter and a sliced foil on plastic one sided ribbon-like bass panel.
I had Divas and their tweeter was a pure ribbon, the mid range had 3 strips of ally foil bonded to mylar suspended between pole pieces so all in a magnetic field, iirc, and the bass was single sided (magnets behind panel) with slit foil on mylar moving element.

I am not familiar with the Magnepan designs, I had always assumed their "true ribbon" was one, not multiple runs of foil on plastic.

Sorry for being unclear, but by "historically" I was referring to the origin of the term "quasi ribbon" at Magnepan. The Magnepan ribbon is, as you say, all foil, as was the early Apogee ribbon. Apogee then changed to foil on Mylar, and that's when Magnepan came up with the term. (They also sued Apogee for patent infringement and ended up getting a royalty.)

 

[Ahmad Lee]

Josh, like you, I too suspect Magnepan has the technical prowess and manufacturing expertise needed, as well as a strong motivation for product and financial improvement, to go "active" ASAP.

My worry is that Magnepan will find that going "Active" is their easiest hurdle in a consumer age where success demands more than traditional sales, banking on one's name, and counting units sold. We've all covered those "higher" hurdles earlier in this thread.

It's the human side of Magnepan's transformation that might be the toughest. We've probably all heard the wise prod, "put yourself in their shoes" to better understand others. In doing so, we might conclude that altering the inertia of a 50 year old legacy, might be Magnepan's highest hurdle.

David summarized it best: "The entrenched ideas that still exist in the brain of the average audio manufacturer/dealer/audiophile still boggle my mind".

Transformation IS an order of magnitude more complex today than before. As is marketing. It's become so complex and challenging, I would posit that "successfully engaging modern consumers to increase MS" IS today's "rocket science". And it's not because Elon and Jeff are quickly making rocketeering look easy.

Ending on an upbeat, Magnepan's going active on the 30.7 (for starters) and Wendell's reliance on focus groups ARE very encouraging. Because ALL success stories must start with "having the right product". This, they might finally have.

 

[josh358]

Josh, like you, I too suspect Magnepan has the technical prowess and manufacturing expertise needed, as well as a strong motivation for product and financial improvement, to go "active" ASAP.

My worry is that Magnepan will find that going "Active" is their easiest hurdle in a consumer age where success demands more than traditional sales, banking on one's name, and counting units sold. We've all covered those "higher" hurdles earlier in this thread.

It's the human side of Magnepan's transformation that might be the toughest. We've probably all heard the wise prod, "put yourself in their shoes" to better understand others. In doing so, we might conclude that altering the inertia of a 50 year old legacy, might be Magnepan's highest hurdle.

David summarized it best: "The entrenched ideas that still exist in the brain of the average audio manufacturer/dealer/audiophile still boggle my mind".

Transformation IS an order of magnitude more complex today than before. As is marketing. It's become so complex and challenging, I would posit that "successfully engaging modern consumers to increase MS" IS today's "rocket science". And it's not because Elon and Jeff are quickly making rocketeering look easy.

Ending on an upbeat, Magnepan's going active on the 30.7 (for starters) and Wendell's reliance on focus groups ARE very encouraging. Because ALL success stories must start with "having the right product". This, they might finally have.

Yep. My main concern is that they've hewed too closely to their traditional line in a shrinking market -- I saw more bald spots at the focus group than I could count.

We all love that line, but it's to maintain that line that they need to diversify, because you can't maintain a factory of Magnepan's size on shrinking large panel sales. The 30.7 for Condos is an important step in that direction, since it leverages contemporary technology to open up a segment of the market that they had previously been unable to reach. Some who had never considered Maggies before because of their size will now do so, and some Maggie owners who would like to move up the line but can't accommodate the larger panels will do so as well.

But I don't think it's enough. The contemporary listener listens to portable audio on earbuds or earphones, uses Bluetooth speakers, is putting music in every room with Alexa and Google Home. And Magnepan hasn't tapped into these markets at all.

They do face some serious challenges in doing so. They can't compete with Chinese manufacturers on price, and since they're committed to making their speakers here, that severely limits the segments they can enter. Also, their technology isn't well suited to miniaturization -- the 30.7 FC pushes line source dipole miniaturization about as far as it will go (a dipole point source would be smaller, and I've suggested that they consider one, but they don't seem interested). I think they have to be a bit more aggressive in stretching their heritage. There are some obvious possibilities, such as a Magnepan headphone or more upscale models (since with the middle class stretched, the well-to-do are where the sales are, with audio manufacturers having to move into the luxury segment to survive). But that last, even if they can break into a market that's already occupied by (frequently mediocre) audio jewelry, would mean a significant departure from their traditional role as a value manufacturer of high end gear.

I really wish they would, though. Otherwise, they'll eventually be forced to downsize, and if they do that, they'll lose manufacturing efficiency and prices will increase.

 

[Darkweb]

These look like they belong in a dark basement.

 

[josh358]

These look like they belong in a dark basement.

It's the laboratory prototype, they just threw some black cloth over it. They haven't made a decision on whether to produce the speakers -- if they do, they'll design the cosmetics (still to be decided) then.

 

[Wes]

If they do make but it is expensive, how well will it compete with the $30k Martin Logan's??

 

[josh358]

I won't compare them on sound quality other than to say that the Maggie is competitive, but a substantial difference is that the Maggie planar panels are 12" wide, while the Martin Logan Neolith is 30" wide. Electrostatic speakers require a larger diaphragm area for a given SPL than planar magnetic speakers do. The Maggies also don't have the big side panels and "tush," but rather a pair of compact woofers that are designed to be hidden.