I could use some suggestions

[Tom C]

It hasn’t yet been stated that topping, benchmark and rme are probably targeted at different users. The topping is aimed toward desktop use alongside a pc in an office. The rme and benchmark are pro audio gear aimed at content producers, people who use the equipment to make sound for television, movies, music and so forth. They need flexibility, the ability to work with more than one type of hardware and software format, because they work with one kind of system today, but then next week they have to interface with a different kind of system. In the case of rme, the hardware purchase entitles the buyer to their suite of software, which may be a significant value to some users. So the price can be justified depending on your needs. If your requirements are relatively simple, you may not be taking advantage of those pro features, and therefore end up spending more money needlessly.
One thing that can help you decide is to look at pictures of the back of the unit, where all the connectors are. If there is a connector you don’t recognize or know the function of, that’s a clue you might be dealing with a unit that does things you don’t need and won’t use. Plus, you want to make sure any unit you are considering does include the things you do need.

 

[Zensō]

Yes, it's all about transparency, but maybe there is something else going on too.

The only thing going on there is a lack of proper level balanced blind testing. Definitely purchase whatever you’d like, but I wouldn’t put too much stock in that article.

 

[gvl]

CD quality codecs may not be as good as lossless, but it is much better than most people give it credit for. There are many respected studies that have concluded that the difference between CD quality and lossless is either nonexistent or negligible. One respectable study concluded that at 24bit/192khz, test subjects somewhat consistently chose the higher resolution, but not by a lot.

Sounds like you may be confused. There's CD-like quality lossy compression, classic CD lossless 44.1khz/16bit aka uncompressed redbook, anything above is hi-res lossless, let's ignore MQA for the sake of this comparison. Apple Music is CD-like lossy compression, it may be close to Redbook but it is less and differences can be heard on some material. Qobuz and Tidal give you access to CD lossless, and also hi-res which as you say may not sound better than CD but hey, why not if it's there. Dropping 2 large on a reference grade DAC to listen to lossy mp3s or aacs is wasteful in my book.

 

[mafelba]

The only thing going on there is a lack of proper level balanced blind testing. Definitely purchase whatever you’d like, but I wouldn’t put too much stock in that article.

I'm not putting a lot of stock in that article. The Benchmark DAC is universally highly regarded. What the article did do, however, is make me consider that maybe measurement alone is not everything, and interestingly, the Benchmark site itself says so much. "Measurements don't tell the full story" https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/what-is-a-benchmark

I don't really know enough about the subject to speak authoritatively, but I figure that I can't go wrong with it, and its made in the US. And if I decide to go with lossless formats, it'll come in handy. I read in too many places that the RME is complicated and scary to configure. Since I don't know too much about DACs, I thought that that might not be the best idea.

 

[mafelba]

Sounds like you may be confused. There's CD-like quality lossy compression, classic CD lossless 44.1khz/16bit aka uncompressed redbook, anything above is hi-res lossless, let's ignore MQA for the sake of this comparison. Apple Music is CD-like lossy compression, it may be close to Redbook but it is less and differences can be heard on some material. Qobuz and Tidal give you access to CD lossless, and also hi-res which as you say may not sound better than CD but hey, why not if it's there. Dropping 2 large on a reference grade DAC to listen to lossy mp3s or aacs is wasteful in my book.

There is a lot of debate about whether or not and to what extent higher resolutions lead to a noticeable difference in sound quality. I personally tested lossless and could not tell the difference. But it is all beside the point anyway. The only important question is whether or not, and to what extent, apples AAC format can be enhanced by a DAC like the Benchmark. Can you point to a study that concludes that transparent DACs like the Benchmark do not significantly enhance the sound of lesser resolution audio formats? I would find it hard to believe that a high quality DAC will not benefit a lossy audio track. Who knows, it might even benefit a lossy track more than it would a lossless track. I doubt there have been studies on this. I could imagine lots of scenarios where the net benefit to SQ is greater on a lossy file. If you have some scientific data that shows that the Benchmark DAC, while greatly enhancing the SQ of a lossless audio track would not greatly enhance the SQ of a lossy track, I'd like to see it and it would definitely make me think twice before making the purchase.

 

[gvl]

Enhance as in how? Let's not forget that the main point is you won't be able to tell the difference between the Benchmark and Topping E30 or the Modius for that matter in a blind level matched test, lossy, lossless, hi-res, all the same. Because they all are transparent DACs.

 

[mafelba]

Enhance as in how? Let's not forget that the main point is you won't be able to tell the difference between the Benchmark and Topping E30 or the Modius for that matter in a blind level matched test, lossy, lossless, hi-res, all the same. Because they all are transparent DACs.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that my "point" was that transparent DACs are all the same. I think you confused me asking a question with making a "point". My question was: will highly transparent DACs sound the same and if so, why the price difference? I certainly don't know enough to answer the question and that is why I asked it. But in the end, I decided that there is a good chance that the answer is no, not all highly transparent DACs will sound exactly the same, but I could be wrong. I'm going to go with Benchmark's position that "Measurements don't tell the full story" and go from there. But again, it's all beside the point. The only thing, again, that is important is whether or not the Benchmark can significantly enhance the SQ of a lossy file (enhance as in the music sounds clearer, the highs cleaner, less muddied, more defined bass, etc.) and I'm going to assume that it can until I see otherwise.

 

[Daverz]

I'm going to go with Benchmark's position that "Measurements don't tell the full story"

That's just marketing blather.

 

[mafelba]

Who knows. You really believe that nobody would be able to tell the difference in sound between this DAC and the RME? Maybe you are right. I'm not convinced.

 

[gvl]

My question was: will highly transparent DACs sound the same and if so, why the price difference? I

They are transparent because they sound the same, that's the meaning of DAC transparency. Price difference is features, quality of mechanical parts, cost of labor, targeting audiophiles with deep pockets. It sounds like you came here to ask after you already made up your mind what you want seeking reassurance. Get the Benchmark, great unit from a great company with long term support, holds value well, money well spent, you will not be disappointed, I really mean it. How about that?

 

[mafelba]

They are transparent because they sound the same, that's the meaning of DAC transparency. Price difference is features, quality of mechanical parts, cost of labor, targeting audiophiles with deep pockets. It sounds like you came here to ask after you already made up your mind what you want seeking reassurance. Get the Benchmark, great unit from a great company with long term support, holds value well, money well spent, you will not be disappointed, I really mean it. How about that?

Right, I already came here with my mind made up but pretended I didn't so I could bother you. I have nothing better to do with my time.

 

[gvl]

Right, I already came here with my mind made up but pretended I didn't so I could bother you. I have nothing better to do with my time.

I figured as much.

 

[mafelba]

They are transparent because they sound the same, that's the meaning of DAC transparency. Price difference is features, quality of mechanical parts, cost of labor, targeting audiophiles with deep pockets. It sounds like you came here to ask after you already made up your mind what you want seeking reassurance. Get the Benchmark, great unit from a great company with long term support, holds value well, money well spent, you will not be disappointed, I really mean it. How about that?

You don't seem to be able to back up any of the things you say. I asked you twice to give me some support to your conclusion that the Benchmark can't significantly improve the sound of a lossy audio file. Maybe if you actually gave some evidence, I would've been convinced. How about that!

 

[gvl]

You don't seem to be able to back up any of the things you say. I asked you twice to give me some support to your conclusion that the Benchmark can't significantly improve the sound of a lossy audio file. Maybe if you actually gave some evidence, I would've been convinced. How about that!

Blind level matched test. You will not be able to tell Benchmark from Modius. After certain point reached in performance humans can't detect the difference between DACs. I had to try it for myself to believe in it, not with the Benchmark however, but if you have doubts it's best to do it yourself.

 

[Daverz]

Who knows. You really believe that nobody would be able to tell the difference in sound between this DAC and the RME?

Yes, assuming carefully matched levels and a reasonable load. But that goes for the previously recommended Topping E30 as well. Of course, there are other things to consider: feature set, build quality, warranty, customer service, whether they pay their employees a decent wage, etc.

 

[Blumlein 88]

There is a lot of debate about whether or not and to what extent higher resolutions lead to a noticeable difference in sound quality. I personally tested lossless and could not tell the difference. But it is all beside the point anyway. The only important question is whether or not, and to what extent, apples AAC format can be enhanced by a DAC like the Benchmark. Can you point to a study that concludes that transparent DACs like the Benchmark do not significantly enhance the sound of lesser resolution audio formats? I would find it hard to believe that a high quality DAC will not benefit a lossy audio track. Who knows, it might even benefit a lossy track more than it would a lossless track. I doubt there have been studies on this. I could imagine lots of scenarios where the net benefit to SQ is greater on a lossy file. If you have some scientific data that shows that the Benchmark DAC, while greatly enhancing the SQ of a lossless audio track would not greatly enhance the SQ of a lossy track, I'd like to see it and it would definitely make me think twice before making the purchase.

Sorry, can't prove a negative. You have asked for that. You ask for a study that concludes high quality DACs will not benefit lossy audio.

And yes, you still haven't figured out what lossy and non-lossy is. When premises are wrong, anything following from them is wrong.

 

[mafelba]

Sorry, can't prove a negative. You have asked for that. You ask for a study that concludes high quality DACs will not benefit lossy audio.

And yes, you still haven't figured out what lossy and non-lossy is. When premises are wrong, anything following from them is wrong.

One philosophy course short of a bargain, if you ask me.

 

[mafelba]

Sorry, can't prove a negative. You have asked for that. You ask for a study that concludes high quality DACs will not benefit lossy audio.

And yes, you still haven't figured out what lossy and non-lossy is. When premises are wrong, anything following from them is wrong.

And it's trivial to prove that quality DACs will NOT benefit lossy audio. First prove that quality DACs WILL benefit LOSSLESS audio. Then repeat that same experiment but this time use LOSSY audio. If you cannot reproduce the same results consistently, you have proven that quality DACs will not benefit lossy audio.

 

[mafelba]

Yes, assuming carefully matched levels and a reasonable load. But that goes for the previously recommended Topping E30 as well. Of course, there are other things to consider: feature set, build quality, warranty, customer service, whether they pay their employees a decent wage, etc.

This is my guess as well. I think that Benchmark, or any other company making hi-end transparent DACs would agree that said DACs will benefit lossy audio and that said DACs do not all sound exactly the same.

 

[Jimbob54]

Problem fixed!!! (no pun intended). Thanks a lot for your time!

So now my second question: I really need to be able to control volume with a remote. I like the SYS/Modius combo and I like my sound. Should I get a Benchmark DAC3 given that I only use Apple TVs 48hkz? Also, are there DACS with volume control that are almost as transparent as the Benchmark? I don't mind spending the money, but at the same time don't want to waste money either. What does the Benchmark do that the Modius doesn't in order to justify the extra cost? Thanks in advance!

I dont know Apple TV and apple music but cant you attenuate the volume at the source end- in the Apple Music app or apple tv remote?

Also, agree with other posters- in that set up (and indeed in pretty much any set up) the Benchmark will offer you little to nothing over any other DAC with a variable volume