I could hear the difference. But why.

[antcollinet]

REW+Mic is a lot more convenient to measure compared to electrically where we need to go to the snake pit, disconnect the cables and hook up a DMM.

The convenience is great. Problem is though that if you still hear a difference, you still don't know if it is caused by a level mismatch or not.

 

[KellenVancouver]

There seems to be a little bit of an infestation of "I could hear a difference" posts as of late.

Won't that always be the case? Should hearing be any different than our other senses? Just like two people will experience a different flavor profile when drinking, for example, from the same bottle of fine wine. I'm definitely a "believer" when it comes to ASR and the need for objective measurement, but I'm not blind to the reality that all sound must be processed through our inherently subjective human brains. That's why even someone like Amir, with his wealth of experience and knowledge, still subjectively skews listening results without an objective measurement of same. If anything, we're too prone in ASR (guilty here) of eschewing subjectivity as irrelevant rather too quickly.

 

[SIY]

REW+Mic is a lot more convenient to measure compared to electrically where we need to go to the snake pit, disconnect the cables and hook up a DMM.

Just touch the DMM leads to the speaker terminals. You don't need to disconnect anything. It's trivially easy.

 

[SIY]

If anything, we're too prone in ASR (guilty here) of eschewing subjectivity as irrelevant rather too quickly.

Subjectivity is fine IF it involves basic ears-only controls.

This is an example of my pet peeve in action- audiophiles (because of idiot audio publications) have destroyed the meaning of "subjective" and re-defined it as "no controls," which leads to confusion and fuzzy thinking. A double blind test is very much a subjective evaluation, but one which has validity. No controls, no validity.

 

[MatrixS2000]

This is an example of my pet peeve in action- audiophiles (because of idiot audio publications) have destroyed the meaning of "subjective" and re-defined it as "no controls," which leads to confusion and fuzzy thinking. A double blind test is very much a subjective evaluation, but one which has validity. No controls, no validity.

There are many examples that we know with absolute certainty that there is no difference in sound. Best example of this, and my pet peeve, are ethernet switches or cables. So many claims that Cat X sounds better the Cat Y or ethernet switch A sound better than ethernet switch B, yet they are all forwarding the exact same data, so they are always listening to the exact same sound.

 

[pablolie]

... If anything, we're too prone in ASR (guilty here) of eschewing subjectivity as irrelevant rather too quickly.

My posting history shows I am not. I have tortured myself doing things such as reliably hearing differences between MP3 256vbr/320cbr and FLAC; or spending a month trying to hear differences between a NAD M22 and a Benchmark AHB. I will never do that again - that's a threshold that makes me happy and I can just enjoy the music. Done with that obsession, which also misleads us into *forcing* ourselves to call out differences that -if they exist- are at the very edge of hearability. It's like trying to pick the difference between two sides in a square that are manufactured to micrometer accuracy with your bare eye... senses don't lie eh? We need measuring tools at every level when it comes to the limits of our sensory perception. It's laughable when people claim our ears can beat sophisticated measuring equipment. Try discovering a new galaxy in the night sky with your natural vision. Try feeling a micrometer irregularity on a surface with your fingertips. Etc etc. We need to augment our senses in *every* way dealing with a lot of stuff.

Everytime anyone claims their ears work better than advanced sound measuring gear I can't help but pity the person.

 

[boxerfan88]

Just touch the DMM leads to the speaker terminals. You don't need to disconnect anything. It's trivially easy.

My active speaker has no speaker terminals ... it has only XLR in ... now what?

 

[boxerfan88]

The convenience is great. Problem is though that if you still hear a difference, you still don't know if it is caused by a level mismatch or not.

And here's proof that REW+Mic level matching works (with mic close to dome midrange). Short sweep from 650Hz-1.5kHz (well within dome midrange operating range).

This exercise was done in 2023 when I needed to make 2 different DACs work together, I had to level match them. It's a huge hassle to hook a DMM to it's XLR connection. We can see from the chart that each step of the SMSL digital volume control is 0.5dB in level. See how SMSL volume 93 (yellow) lands almost on top of Soekris volume -3. SMSL volume 92 is the pink line. SMSL volume 94 is half a DB up (not in chart, no longer have the measurement).

Still not good enough? Still wanna push electrical matching with DMM? Yada yada yada.

Yes, electrical matching is ideal, but in the real world, electrical matching may be inconvenient. I have now provided proof that REW+Mic SPL matching definitely can work.

.

 

[SIY]

My active speaker has no speaker terminals ... it has only XLR in ... now what?

Then you'll have do do one disconnection and put the DMM probes on the pins. It might take you an extra 15-20 seconds.

 

[pablolie]

Subjectivity is fine IF it involves basic ears-only controls.

This is an example of my pet peeve in action- audiophiles (because of idiot audio publications) have destroyed the meaning of "subjective" and re-defined it as "no controls," which leads to confusion and fuzzy thinking. A double blind test is very much a subjective evaluation, but one which has validity. No controls, no validity.

I am perfectly fine with anyone having a personal preference and saying they like something better. It's when they claim it is universally better -and everybody that doesn't hear it and abandons their flawed belief in measurements is doesn't understand things science can't yet explain- that they reveal their utter ignorance.

These discussions come up in ASR... the measurements are there, you know that some headphone or loudspeaker has a small spike here and there. Some think it's imperative to PEQ, some simply enjoy the out of the box sound. Some claim to hear a 1dB difference between one product and another at a certain frequency, others aren't bothered by it.

But measurements reveal where and why one is possibly likely to hear a difference. Doing it by ear only is stone age stuff in audio.

Measurements over time have showed me that I do have personal biases. I can look at a loudspeaker's measurements here in ASR and establish with very high probability whether I'll enjoy listening to it, even when it's not recommended in the conclusions.

 

[JSmith]

I’m bypassing the DAC in both running HDMI to my AV10. What do you think would cause the discrepancy?

What options are enabled or disabled in this menu though?

Page 38;

https://magnetar-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/UDP800-User-Manual-English.pdf

JSmith

 

[boxerfan88]

Then you'll have do do one disconnection and put the DMM probes on the pins. It might take you an extra 15-20 seconds.

 

[guy48065]

Yeah but I deleted posts about politicians.

I see. Well actually I didn't see (4:40am, etc), so I thought you were making a statement.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

And here's proof that REW+Mic level matching works (with mic close to dome midrange). Short sweep from 650Hz-1.5kHz (well within dome midrange operating range).

View attachment 427614


This exercise was done in 2023 when I needed to make 2 different DACs work together, I had to level match them. It's a huge hassle to hook a DMM to it's XLR connection. We can see from the chart that each step of the SMSL digital volume control is 0.5dB in level. See how SMSL volume 93 (yellow) lands almost on top of Soekris volume -3. SMSL volume 92 is the pink line. SMSL volume 94 is half a DB up (not in chart, no longer have the measurement).

Still not good enough? Still wanna push electrical matching with DMM? Yada yada yada.

Yes, electrical matching is ideal, but in the real world, electrical matching may be inconvenient. I have now provided proof that REW+Mic SPL matching definitely can work.

.

I'm using a DMM -it's readily available and doesn't require a PC connection. All I need now is a test tone on Spotify.

A DMM isn't just more precise (though a mic can be precise too with extra effort); it's also much faster since it eliminates the need for microphone setup and a PC.

 

[antcollinet]

Won't that always be the case? Should hearing be any different than our other senses? Just like two people will experience a different flavor profile when drinking, for example, from the same bottle of fine wine. I'm definitely a "believer" when it comes to ASR and the need for objective measurement, but I'm not blind to the reality that all sound must be processed through our inherently subjective human brains. That's why even someone like Amir, with his wealth of experience and knowledge, still subjectively skews listening results without an objective measurement of same. If anything, we're too prone in ASR (guilty here) of eschewing subjectivity as irrelevant rather too quickly.

It's not about one persons hearing being different from another persons. It's about one person hearing a difference between two cables, or two pieces of gear, where the output from those two items is audibly identical for all humans. IE - there is no difference to be heard.

Such claims are what has got the audio industry into the mess it is currently in.

 

[antcollinet]

And here's proof that REW+Mic level matching works (with mic close to dome midrange). Short sweep from 650Hz-1.5kHz (well within dome midrange operating range).

View attachment 427614


This exercise was done in 2023 when I needed to make 2 different DACs work together, I had to level match them. It's a huge hassle to hook a DMM to it's XLR connection. We can see from the chart that each step of the SMSL digital volume control is 0.5dB in level. See how SMSL volume 93 (yellow) lands almost on top of Soekris volume -3. SMSL volume 92 is the pink line. SMSL volume 94 is half a DB up (not in chart, no longer have the measurement).

Still not good enough? Still wanna push electrical matching with DMM? Yada yada yada.

Yes, electrical matching is ideal, but in the real world, electrical matching may be inconvenient. I have now provided proof that REW+Mic SPL matching definitely can work.

.

Yes - that might be OK - near field with a swept frequency.

My reply was based on an expectation that REW+Mic, for most people would mean listening position and REW SPL meter which would not be IMO sufficiently accurate.

But now you have something that to me seems significantly less convenient than a DVM - especially given that in most controlled listening tests you are going to be swapping cables in any case.

 

[Scytales]

You gave me a very good laugh



Someone is gonna tell you that it’s not good enough. And that must be done electrically (i got that thrown at me before). In my view REW+Mic matching can work if measured near field and the device has stepped volume control (coz we can’t set the volume in between steps anyway). REW+Mic is a lot more convenient to measure compared to electrically where we need to go to the snake pit, disconnect the cables and hook up a DMM.

Considering the simplicity to hook up two DMM probes to whatever chassis connector or cable connector, it really makes very little sense to go the less reliable way to match level, ie install a microphone, sound card and computer in the room then take an acoustic measurement.

Those who like to DIY can even build a test fixture with suitable audio connectors (eventually with built-in load resistors) on one side and banana connector to the other to ease the process of taking measurement with a DMM even further.

One way to level matched without having to disconnect anything is to use a low level (for instance -16 dB or less) low frequency (for instance 300 Hz) sine, play it at a suitably low volume setting but still in the range of casual listening and take a measurement with a DMM at the amplifier speaker outputs. That way, the test tone is not discomforting to hear or dangerous for the integrity of the speaker's units.

 

[Mnyb]

Is there a way to check the hdmi outputs for data consistency ? level should not really be an issue with identical data using a digital input ?

Can HDMI be recorded in some way and compared bitwise ?

 

[Sokel]

Not any DMM is good for matching though,one has to know the tolerances which can deviate a lot.

Cheap ones without documentation are not to be trusted when it comes to millivolts.

 

[Sokel]

Even the non-dirt cheap ones with documentation may not fit.
Here's my Extech EX520 for example.Not dead cheap but far from the nice bench ones:

See the AC voltage tolerances which is what we use to match.

(the above stands even if calibrated and certified)