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I cannot trust the Harman speaker preference score

Do you value the Harman quality score?

  • 100% yes

  • It is a good metric that helps, but that's all

  • No, I don't

  • I don't have a decision


Results are only viewable after voting.

More Dynamics Please

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Toole and Olive began their objective speaker performance research at Canada's National Research Center and the data was shared with the speaker industry where it was widely accepted by many. Harman believed enough in the validity of the research to hire Toole and Olive to continue that research and help apply the results to the development of speakers produced for Harman brands.

Given the above it's perfectly logical why Harman's marketing department would promote the results of the research that has been engineered into the speaker designs of the brands it sells. It's not uncommon for companies to promote the engineering behind their product designs which is preferable to marketing fluff. If we believe in the results of the research we should also believe in the products that best incorporate those results in their design and manufacture.
 

Axo1989

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... If we believe in the results of the research we should also believe in the products that best incorporate those results in their design and manufacture.
The idiom "believe in" is too weird for me, especially related to an inanimate object. That the research is informative, and reflects aspects of performance of the devices in question, is less weird to my mind.
 

More Dynamics Please

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The idiom "believe in" is too weird for me, especially related to an inanimate object. That the research is informative, and reflects aspects of performance of the devices in question, is less weird to my mind.

Your second sentence reflects what I was referring to "believe in" which I assumed would be assumed. :)
 

More Dynamics Please

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The idea that a disinterested party would "believe in" (as opposed to be informed about) a product was what struck me.
I understand your concern about the semantics. By definition a belief in something can be based on sound reasoning as well as blind faith. In this instance my use of "believe in" is based on the former, not the latter. I hope this clarifies it for you.
 

Axo1989

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I understand your concern about the semantics. By definition a belief in something can be based on sound reasoning as well as blind faith. In this instance my use of "believe in" is based on the former, not the latter. I hope this clarifies it for you.
Yes, probably a regional idiom that got me, I understand your meaning. Thanks for elaborating.
 

Aperiodic

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I don't 'get' the cachet of the 'Harman curve'- for speakers or headphones.. It seems that it is based on the same concept as a popularity contest. More people 'like' speaker/headphone 'A' than speaker/headphone 'B', so it must be better. According to that criterion, Beats headphones would be the best headphones on the market, whereas they are actually trash.
 

Newman

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^^^ there is a world of difference between the 'wannabe coolest' type of popularity, and the 'most highly rated on sound quality in blind tests' type of popularity.

Also, preferences are not as widely distributed as you might be thinking. A headphone with a major deviation from the 'curve' is going to get top rating with very few people indeed, in a controlled listening test.

Finally, your mention of Beats is ironic: Dr Sean Olive recently noted that the Beats Solo Pro headphone has excellent conformance with the target curve, link. You have severely overgeneralised about that brand, although, like many brands, it would be no surprise to find bad-sounding models.

cheers

 

oversky

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With EQ, how many of you consider Neumi BS5P($140/pair) is in the same broad bucket with Genelec 8010A($700/pair)?

The score is not significant ±0.5. It means that 2 speakers which have a difference in score less than 1 are in the same broad bucket. No point to look at the decimals.

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IPunchCholla

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I can’t say for those two speakers, but with proper EQ using REW and ARC3, not manual, my speakers improved enormously. To the point that my timeline for new speakers is way out, since all my noticeable flaws seem to have shrunk well past the variation in recordings themselves.

I would be curious what would happen to speaker preference scores if speakers were software calibrated to the same target before the preference test.
 

Flak

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I can’t say for those two speakers, but with proper EQ using REW and ARC3, not manual, my speakers improved enormously. To the point that my timeline for new speakers is way out, since all my noticeable flaws seem to have shrunk well past the variation in recordings themselves.

I would be curious what would happen to speaker preference scores if speakers were software calibrated to the same target before the preference test.
Good question (in my admittedly biased opinion) :)
 

Alice of Old Vincennes

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I don't 'get' the cachet of the 'Harman curve'- for speakers or headphones.. It seems that it is based on the same concept as a popularity contest. More people 'like' speaker/headphone 'A' than speaker/headphone 'B', so it must be better. According to that criterion, Beats headphones would be the best headphones on the market, whereas they are actually trash.
Harmon curve based on popularity contest? You joined this site in 2019.
 

MattHooper

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WTF does that have to do with the validity (or not) of the Harman curve(s)?

He's indicating that one would think, by this time, you'd have a better understanding of the rational behind the blind testing and results of the Harman studies (which are based on previous research methods).

If you are interested in producing good sound quality, you first have to determine what makes for "good sound quality." And to do that, you'd want to test what people tend to perceive as "good sound quality." And to do that you'd want to make sure that what you are actually testing is the SOUND of a speaker, not the influence of how it looks or it's brand (e.g. like Beats headphones). Hence...blind testing, correlating the various aspects of speaker design to perceived sound quality. It turns out that, by far, most people prefer generally neutral sound, with the dispersion characteristics well controlled such that the sense of neutrality will be less disturbed by room influence.

THAT is how you can determine something like a Beats headphone curve is "crap." (Otherwise...on what grounds are you calling them crap?")

How ELSE would you go about this???
 

amper42

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WTF does that have to do with the validity (or not) of the Harman curve(s)?

The Harmon Curve is what it is. Validity means "officially acceptable". The preference score does not consistently meet that standard for me. That's true for many listeners who take the time to AB speakers.

From my view, the preference scores are an interesting method for testing and scoring speakers, but not a decisive measure to determine whether I will prefer one speaker over the other. The traits used in the test are good but not sufficient for making a decision totally based on the score. Harmon indicates scores of less than one in difference are not meaningful. That should tell you they see reason for a significant fudge factor as well.

My taste is often different than what the Harmon score value indicates. The speaker with the lower score can sound significantly better to me. That has happened many times in my AB listening sessions. Once you add your personal listening session taste to the decision making process you will likely find it different from the Harman Score. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, congratulations for taking the time to listen to both speakers. Those that do that will realize the Harmon Preference Score is simply one of many tools for evaluating speaker preference. Don't be surprised if it doesn't match your taste in the final listening test. It happens a lot! On the other hand, it's nice we have something to compare speaker traits with - even if it's not always a match for your taste.
 

Newman

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Me too. If Beats are what the Harman curve sounds like, "Include me out" in the immortal words of Yogi Berra.
Only one set of Beats: the Solo Pro. Don’t overgeneralise (more than you already have).
 
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Aperiodic

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^^^ there is a world of difference between the 'wannabe coolest' type of popularity, and the 'most highly rated on sound quality in blind tests' type of popularity.

Funny you should mention that, because I see a lot of Beats hanging around peoples necks, not even being listened to. Reminds me of audio designer Frank van Alstine's definition of how to tell if someone's audio system is 'good enough': "If, when you go to their house, is the audio system usually on or usually off? If it is usually on, it is probably good enough; if it is usually off, it probably isn't." I see a lot of Beats being used as necklaces- In fact, when I see a headphone being worn that way, it seems to always be that brand. I suggest an analogous effect applies with headphones as with home systems. In fact, the following is a quote from pre-buyout CEO Luke Woods:

"But the company's greatest innovation may have been its success at making headphones as much fashion accessories as they are listening devices. "If you're wearing a pair of Beats, it says, 'Music's really important in my life,' says Wood. "I've seen people wearing them at parties with hundreds of people, and they've got their Beats around their neck. It's no different than somebody wearing a Run DMC T-shirt and Adidas shoes, or the guy who always wears a Metallica T-shirt."

To me, having headphones in, on, or around your ears, listening to music, is what really says 'Music's really important in my life'... But what do I know.

Finally, your mention of Beats is ironic: Dr Sean Olive recently noted that the Beats Solo Pro headphone has excellent conformance with the target curve, link. You have severely overgeneralised about that brand, although, like many brands, it would be no surprise to find bad-sounding models.

cheers
I am not at liberty to disclose how I am able to speak to Beats' quality, but their build quality is extremely cheap. That's what I mainly meant by 'trash'. They use glue where a more serious implementation would use screws. Kind of hard to excuse this kind of 'cheaping out' in a $300 headphone. I have seen the little flexible 'wing' that secures the earbud models in the ear, break off.

Back to OT: Jury still out for me on Harman curve. Bought recently-tested-here Truthear Zero to test out how I respond (Before anybody chastises me, yes, I know speakers aren't headphones, but the speaker and headphone curves are pointed generally at the same desired end result AFAIK.) Initial response was, briefly, "Gee, an acoustic bass just doesn't sound like that". I am a fan of small-setting music involving the instrument and have spent countless hours listening to it both recorded and live (including from six feet away by friends who play), and on many recordings the bass sounds 'turned up' to me. Whether my initial impression sticks, we'll see.
 

Newman

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luft262

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Thank you for displaying these curves Bjorn. They look totally familiar, in that the predicted room curve is a good match above about 500 Hz, and is corrupted by room interactions at lower frequencies. All of this is discussed in AES papers dating from the mid 1980s, and my books. Obviously all setups and rooms yield different curves at lower frequencies, so individual attention is required for each installation if maximum performance is expected. Listeners have a powerful ability to adapt to, and “listen through” rooms to the extent that, in a given room, they are able to rate and rank the inherent sound quality of loudspeakers in a relative sense – the good ones still win, the bad ones still lose. However, in setting up one’s personal system the job is not done. To maximize the satisfaction from any loudspeaker, whatever its inherent performance, the huge influence of the room at lower frequencies must be addressed, and we know that bass is a substantial factor (30 %) in our perception of sound quality.

At frequencies below transition/Schroeder room resonances must be tamed, and if done successfully, the sound quality will improve, and it will be improved for multiple listeners, not just in the sweet spot. Multiple subwoofers in a bass managed system is the best solution. Bass management high-pass filters the satellite (bookshelf?) loudspeakers allowing them to play louder. This is inconvenient or impossible for dedicated two-channel listeners, but bass management is included in all multichannel processors. This alone might be motivation to have the option of occasional multichannel experiences or upmixing – 5.1 systems can be impressive; Atmos is overkill, but is commercially driven by you-know-who.

Notions that multichannel systems are incapable of superb two-channel reproduction are wrong. With bass management and competently designed subwoofer systems a system based on good bookshelf units can be seriously good. For me, video music concerts of all musical genres can provide high quality entertainment – there are many mediocre examples, unfortunately, but the best of them have excellent multichannel sound tracks putting you at the performance – and I like seeing the performers.

Still not at all as good as the live LA Phil concert we attended recently.
Thank you again Dr. Toole for chiming in. You mention that using EQ below 500Hz and multiple subwoofers is very important to listener experience. If a person uses that advice, gets a high quality AVR, multiple subs, and good speakers based on their spinorama is there any advantage, assuming an average sized room and listening distance, or reason to get tower speakers over standmount speakers since subwoofers will be in play?
 

Floyd Toole

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Thank you again Dr. Toole for chiming in. You mention that using EQ below 500Hz and multiple subwoofers is very important to listener experience. If a person uses that advice, gets a high quality AVR, multiple subs, and good speakers based on their spinorama is there any advantage, assuming an average sized room and listening distance, or reason to get tower speakers over standmount speakers since subwoofers will be in play?
It is partly a matter of visual aesthetics - a large bookshelf on a stand vs. a medium sized floor stander. I say medium sized because it is not necessary to duplicate the very low frequency output supplied by the subs. So, high-pass filtering a medium sized tower will allow it to play a bit louder. Otherwise, as you conclude, there is no need for anything beyond a sturdy standmount loudspeaker.
 
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steve59

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so far above my 9th grade education.
 
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