I can hear 2.4Ghz WiFi with IEM's?

[Tks]

Anytime there is traffic while on my computer i.e. opening a new website, or downloading/uploading something, I can hear some sort of static sound from my IEMs. RME DAC hooked up to the PC but only with Toslink. If I pull the Toslink connection out, I can't hear it.

Don't understand how that's possible seeing as how there is no sound playing while this happens (it can be no sound, or during sound, makes zero difference), so it's not like the PC is sending polluted data or something (even if it was, the WiFi on this desktop is using an external WiFi solution through PCI-E interface with the antena being outside of the case, so it's not like it's creating any IEM internally to begin with that would make some sense).

I got a bunch of IEM's that do this, but I just tried the KZ ZSN I had next to me just now, and it still occurs. Oh and interestingly enough, it only occurs on the right channel.

Really wish IEM makers would stop with these overly sensitive IEMs. Every device on this planet can power IEM's these days (I'm usually around -40db to -30db max on the IEM port from the RME, and these things are loud.. Hell I can run HD6XX's from the IEM port and it's still enough for 99% of music I listen to).

I recall many cellphones back in the day had built in radio, but only usable if you plug in headphones or IEM's so the wire serves as an antenna. Antena for 2.4Ghz WiFi now though? Sheesh >_>

Anyone else experience anything like this?

 

[DonH56]

Poor EMI/RFI rejection and/or poor computer (or cables, or...) shielding. Sound or not, the PC has numerous things inside generating a broad range of signals, and the amplitude and frequency of those signals varies with usage. And of course the OS or something could be "glitching" the datastream at certain times and the IEMs are sensitive to that.

If you move further away from the PC, does the noise diminish?

 

[pozz]

You could try the USB connection and a choke.

 

[Tks]

Poor EMI/RFI rejection and/or poor computer (or cables, or...) shielding. Sound or not, the PC has numerous things inside generating a broad range of signals, and the amplitude and frequency of those signals varies with usage. And of course the OS or something could be "glitching" the datastream at certain times and the IEMs are sensitive to that.

If you move further away from the PC, does the noise diminish?

I can completely avoid it, even by turning my head simply (it seems to be triggered by being in the direct line from the router in the other room, and the WiFi antenna on the computer essentially.

There could be sound playing, or zero sound playing. It has no effect.

You could try the USB connection and a choke.

I have a meter long cable with chokes on both ends. Made no difference in the slightest.

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Interestingly enough this doesn't occur if I plug the IEM into a 789. It seems to exclusively happen with the RME. So it doesn't look like it's a noise or some sort of power supply issue (as I've tried overclocked settings on the computer, and Power Saver settings which turns it into a potato with almost no power being used). And I know for a fact it can't be a balanced VS single-ended issue because I've tried both connections to the 789, and the IEM won't pick up this WiFi transmission static.

Again, this isn't really an issue, just more of a curiosity. On how sensitive these IEM's are essentially (oh btw, the closer I move my head to the WiFi antena, the louder the static becomes, but it's not really much loud at all, nor is the shift in volume some crazy amount, simply very subtle).

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

The logical intersection of all your mentioned experiment outcomes points to the right channel of the headphone output of the RME DAC as being involved in the chain of whatever WiFi EMI you are hearing.

The following are hypotheses that you could prove to be false through previously gathered info or new purpose-designed experiments. The internals of the RME DAC, flawed or not, may be such that when the right channel is live, its hot wire is in electrical contact with a metal chassis or traces to a sufficiently large metal layer of a PCB. Perhaps when the DAC senses no input on its TosLink and USB and other inputs, it powers down and cuts out the HP out with a relay. Perhaps when your right earphone is in the line of sight of your router's WiFi antenna, the MIMO transceiver beamforming capability of your router's WiFi finds a path of least resistance (highest signal strength) to your computer's WiFi antenna by utilizing the right ear channel of your IEM cable, the HP out right channel of DAC and chassis or PCB of DAC and small air gap between DAC and computer antenna in the path. Perhaps some of your IEMs are sensitive enough that you hear the EMI. Perhaps some of the details I hypothesized do not play a role, but the idea of a path of least resistance between antennas that involves your IEMs' cables may still apply (which may be what you were thinking when you asked about whether the cable could act as a WiFi antenna). When forming part of the antenna-to-antenna signal path, the disturbances are strong enough to be heard with sensitive IEMs. When you turn your head away, the router and computer's WiFi use some other path not involving your IEM cable, and the normal EMI of the then weaker WiFi signals crossing your IEM cable is inaudible.

Bear in mind that I know so little about invisible electricity and electronics that sometimes I have a hard time believing it exists at all, and I have to then stick my fingers in a wall socket to verify its reality. But that would not stop me from selling you expensive replacement cables for all your IEMs, that use reticulated cryo-treated hyperfine transparent gold-palladium-platinum alloy shielding inside the outer insulator to protect the conductors from all possible EMI/RFI including the ghostly voices of the dead that are trying to communicate with you in the static you hear. Available with Litz braiding upon request.

I can completely avoid it, even by turning my head simply (it seems to be triggered by being in the direct line from the router in the other room, and the WiFi antenna on the computer essentially.

There could be sound playing, or zero sound playing. It has no effect.



I have a meter long cable with chokes on both ends. Made no difference in the slightest.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Interestingly enough this doesn't occur if I plug the IEM into a 789. It seems to exclusively happen with the RME. So it doesn't look like it's a noise or some sort of power supply issue (as I've tried overclocked settings on the computer, and Power Saver settings which turns it into a potato with almost no power being used). And I know for a fact it can't be a balanced VS single-ended issue because I've tried both connections to the 789, and the IEM won't pick up this WiFi transmission static.

Again, this isn't really an issue, just more of a curiosity. On how sensitive these IEM's are essentially (oh btw, the closer I move my head to the WiFi antena, the louder the static becomes, but it's not really much loud at all, nor is the shift in volume some crazy amount, simply very subtle).

 

[Unclevanya]

Is the router close enough to use 5 GHz rather than 2.4? Can you switch channels? Have you considered power line network adapters to eliminate the wireless link? Would it be possible to change out the router for a mesh wireless system to limit 2.4ghz for interconnection and use 5ghz for the clients? Lastly, can you have a wired connection added to eliminate the issue?

 

[JohnYang1997]

Try using rme through battery and with a laptop. Not necessarily for long term use but to identify the issue.

 

[Neutron]

When you removed Toslink, would your RME mute all output as no source connected? Some devices do that. If that's the case, there is no way to tell if it is ground loop related.

My computer has a similar issue when my HDD is running, my left speaker will buzz but not the DAC.

 

[Tks]

Is the router close enough to use 5 GHz rather than 2.4? Can you switch channels? Have you considered power line network adapters to eliminate the wireless link? Would it be possible to change out the router for a mesh wireless system to limit 2.4ghz for interconnection and use 5ghz for the clients? Lastly, can you have a wired connection added to eliminate the issue?

5Ghz is fine, no static at all can be heard when I use it. Which I do, and it's not a problem to use it at all, I just found it interesting that one day when my WiFi switched to 2.4Ghz for whatever reason when I was perhaps away or sleeping (I leave my computer on), I just noticed this by chance.

This whole "issue" isn't really an issue at all because I can avoid it. I just find it curious that it's possible at all.

Try using rme through battery and with a laptop. Not necessarily for long term use but to identify the issue.

Still occurs, so as long as the Toslink connection is established, it happens regardless if the DAC is muted, playing music while muted, not muted, and playing music while not muted. Whatever is occuring in terms of sound being active or not, has no effect.

When you removed Toslink, would your RME mute all output as no source connected? Some devices do that. If that's the case, there is no way to tell if it is ground loop related.

My computer has a similar issue when my HDD is running, my left speaker will buzz but not the DAC.

Probably, but if it does, there is no indication of it doing so. There's no relay clicking, nor is there no front panel MUTE message being displayed.

Hmm, that HDD issue you have sure is peculiar. Wonder how that works >_>

 

[JohnYang1997]

5Ghz is fine, no static at all can be heard when I use it. Which I do, and it's not a problem to use it at all, I just found it interesting that one day when my WiFi switched to 2.4Ghz for whatever reason when I was perhaps away or sleeping (I leave my computer on), I just noticed this by chance.

This whole "issue" isn't really an issue at all because I can avoid it. I just find it curious that it's possible at all.



Still occurs, so as long as the Toslink connection is established, it happens regardless if the DAC is muted, playing music while muted, not muted, and playing music while not muted. Whatever is occuring in terms of sound being active or not, has no effect.



Probably, but if it does, there is no indication of it doing so. There's no relay clicking, nor is there no front panel MUTE message being displayed.

Hmm, that HDD issue you have sure is peculiar. Wonder how that works >_>

What I was saying was to eliminate any power from the wall and any external ground connection.

 

[Tks]

What I was saying was to eliminate any power from the wall and any external ground connection.

I understand, I'm saying it happens regardless of power source. I have this one

 

[pseudorndnbr]

This is gonna potentially be a bit of a distraction, but on the off chance that it might end up turning out to be the reason behind the noise that you're hearing I'm gonna bring it up.

Basically, USB 3.0 has pretty substantial issues with 2.4 GHz wifi signals. The first time I came across this issue was when the company I was working for at the time gave me a 13 Inch Macbook pro that had only 2 thunderbolt 3 ports (Type C connectors) on the left side of the unit. Macbook Pros have the Wifi card very close to the two connectors. So, naturally I hooked up some Hubs to get good old standard USB Type A plugs to plug in external HDDs, a dac, etc. Whenever I had a USB 3.0 device hooked up to the Type C port (be that through an adapter or a hub or some extension cable) the Wifi performance would drop drastically. Ping spikes up to 1s, occasional full disconnects from the Wifi network.

Turns out that USB 3.0 has serious issues with 2.4 GHz signals. But it's not really an issue most of the time because most manufacturers don't use a full metal chassis on their laptops or they have ports on both sides. Apple didn't and it was most noticeably with macbooks.

Turns out that this was somewhat known going all the way back to the early days of USB 3.0. I think the first serious research and discovery of this came from Intel. See for instance https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...al-bus/usb3-frequency-interference-paper.html

What does this mean? In my case it meant that 2.4 GHz wifi was unusable whenever I had any USB 3.0 device hooked up to my machine. That included hooking up USB 2.0 peripherals through a Thunderbolt 3 Hub to the Macbook Pro.

I don't recall "hearing the wifi signal" and I don't have the macbook in question anymore (But this issue was reproducable in all the company issued macbook pros, so it wasn't just a defective unit issue). As mentioned, in my case the problem manifested itself in a huge degradation of the 2.4 GHz stability and quality. Basically 2.4 GHz wifi was not usable at all.

Also, using a usb cable with Chokes didn't stop the reliability issues I was experiencing. The only thing that helped was wrapping multiple layers of Aluminium foil around all the USB cables and the Thunderbolt 3 Hub that I was using. That helped out to a decent extent, but the problems were still noticeable just surfing the web. Downloading large files directly onto an external hard drive that was hooked up via USB 3.0 never worked properly, no matter how hard I tried shielding everything.


Since you already tried using the DAC via USB, see if you are able to force USB 2.0 in the Bios or whether your motherboard has USB ports that are only USB 2.0. I don't know what USB chip is used in the RME DAC. While the unit says "USB 2.0" on the back, that may just be because Type B connectors were introduced with USB 2.0 from what I know.


TL;DR: If you have some USB 3.0 peripheral running, the USB 3.0 Data signal and the 2.4 GHz wifi signal don't work well together. See the intel paper I linked above.

 

[Neutron]

Probably, but if it does, there is no indication of it doing so. There's no relay clicking, nor is there no front panel MUTE message being displayed.

Hmm, that HDD issue you have sure is peculiar. Wonder how that works >_>

If display says "unlocked", it could be muted. I know some AKM dacs will even mute between tracks to avoid pop. Relays (esp. SS ones) don't always click hard enough that you can hear it doing so.

I was a bit hesitated on the possiblity of your Wifi signal interferences. I have tried with my DAP, and I have to put it within 1 inch of my router's antenna to pick up that noise (like white noise from old TV). I have my phone streaming data 1 ft away and I tested between the router and phone.

I would still think it is probably related to your PC's psu. You can try if it happens when you GPU is under load (turn down volume to 1% but don't mute output). And, check if your PC's power cord is physically close/next to any other power/signal cord. AC cords emit EMI, and some DMMs are capable of sensing it to tell if the cable has live voltage.

 

[Tks]

If display says "unlocked", it could be muted. I know some AKM dacs will even mute between tracks to avoid pop. Relays (esp. SS ones) don't always click hard enough that you can hear it doing so.

I was a bit hesitated on the possiblity of your Wifi signal interferences. I have tried with my DAP, and I have to put it within 1 inch of my router's antenna to pick up that noise (like white noise from old TV). I have my phone streaming data 1 ft away and I tested between the router and phone.

I would still think it is probably related to your PC's psu. You can try if it happens when you GPU is under load (turn down volume to 1% but don't mute output). And, check if your PC's power cord is physically close/next to any other power/signal cord. AC cords emit EMI, and some DMMs are capable of sensing it to tell if the cable has live voltage.

Even if I use a power bank? The DAC is nowhere near the PSU (it's under a shroud completely blocked off from all sides from a metal computer case, except the rear exhaust of course, which my DAC is nowhere near).

As for the "unlocked", nah, that's never been the case aside from when I boot up my PC for a split second it takes to lock on.

The GPU load has no bearing on any of this. I ran a benchmark stress test to shoot the load to 100% utilization, and there's no issue even if I put my ear next to the case. It has all to do with actively download/uploading. Otherwise if it's an idle internet connection, this issue doesn't occur at all, regardless of PC load.

 

[Neutron]

As for the "unlocked", nah, that's never been the case aside from when I boot up my PC for a split second it takes to lock on.

That's what I would expect if you use toslink. However I just wonder how is your equipment grounded with toslink and headphone. Still I don't think your wifi signal would cause that much of a hassle unless you are really using things right next to it.

 

[Tks]

That's what I would expect if you use toslink. However I just wonder how is your equipment grounded with toslink and headphone. Still I don't think your wifi signal would cause that much of a hassle unless you are really using things right next to it.

No hassle at all, I just move a little bit, or just use 5Ghz, and the problem instantly goes away. I just found it a curious case was all, really. The RME isn't grounded, so I'm not sure, how, or if at all, that plays into this whole phenomena.

 

[Neutron]

No hassle at all, I just move a little bit, or just use 5Ghz, and the problem instantly goes away. I just found it a curious case was all, really. The RME isn't grounded, so I'm not sure, how, or if at all, that plays into this whole phenomena.

I tried a few things on my system and it was totally power/grounding issue. Today I plugged my phone into PC for charging (unusual) and noticed that if I used it during charging, I heard that noise from right speaker... But my PC was plugged into a far away outlet, and speakers are behind an APC H10, so it is amazing that the noise channeled through.

However your case is interesting. I would expect 5GHz to emit stronger signal as it fades stronger than 2.4GHz and 5GHz signal should be directional (not sure about 2.4G though since it depends on your particular device).

 

[majingotan]

5 GHz has less penetration than 2.4 GHz so any decent metal shielding on the amplifier stage should block those RFI noises completely

 

[Neutron]

5 GHz has less penetration than 2.4 GHz so any decent metal shielding on the amplifier stage should block those RFI noises completely

I think the issue is some kind of grounding problem. RF (or whatever) hit the case and found no where to go. On the other hand, 5GHz wifi relies on beam-forming so it is highly directional, but I am not sure if that applies to his 2.4GHz as well.

 

[Tks]

Interesting @Neutron

Just weird nonsense in general it seems.