I auditioned Dutch & Dutch 8c, and I have more questions now than before

[Martijn Mensink]

My beefs with this speaker are:
Price: I would like it to be lower

Yeah, I hear you. Who wouldn’t want a lower price? That said, the 8c is expensive to produce. When you consider what you’re getting, it’s a fair price. In fact, many of our hi-fi customers switched to the 8c from much more expensive and complex setups. Surprisingly, not only did they simplify their systems, but in most cases, they also noticed an improvement in sound quality. Therefore, depending on your perspective, you could even argue it offers great value for money.

Its latency, that could be lower as well

Latency isn't an issue here. In low-latency mode, it's around 3 milliseconds, about the same time it takes sound to travel one meter through air. In linear-phase mode, it's about 30 ms, but that's expected if you want 4th order crossovers and flat phase response. The crossover filters cause some frequencies to be delayed relative to others. The phase-linearization filter simply delays all frequencies equally, so they align perfectly in time.

The internal DSP computation time is negligible. Most of the 3 ms delay comes from the ADC and DAC.

Lack of clear support for subwoofers (although in most cases it may not need these)

I get where this "beef" is coming from. The 8c does have a subwoofer output, but the setup interface still isn’t developed yet, as other features have taken priority. That said, I’m curious: what other speakers are you comparing it to that do offer a fully configurable subwoofer output? There are very few out there, if any.

Alright, you’ve heard it here first: this particular issue will be resolved in 2025.

The fog about its integration in a multi-channel audio system...

Sounds like we need to clear up the fog. What is unclear about it? Perhaps I can help lift the haze.

For most people, under blind conditions and with level matched: AAC, Ogg-Vorbis (used by Spotify) , mp3 at, and above 256 kb/s, are undistinguishable from lossless, for 99.9999999999% (made up number ) of the human population... You could be part of the 0.0000000001%, that can hear differences. You can test yourself here and see if you belong ... ...

I agree in principle. I’ve done plenty of ABX blind tests comparing Spotify's 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis to lossless. When focusing on specific half-second audio fragments, I could reliably tell the difference after some practice. But during normal listening, the difference is imperceptible to me.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

@Martijn Mensink as a great admirer of the Dutch & Dutch brand, I wonder why D&D doesn’t participate on the Dutch Audio Event? https://dutchaudioevent.nl/

With so much quality on board and room correction this would easily be one of the most impressive setups….!

Actually, we wanted to attend this year’s edition, but it was already sold out. Hopefully, next year! We did manage to snag what might be the very last room at the Warsaw show, though!

 

[Laagman]

Is that right? I'm not surprised. Our new TV has everything that opens and shuts in terms of apps, but I get frustrated and just plug the old HTPC into it when I actually want to be able to navigate, search for content, connect to my LAN/computers etc.

Reason is you pay thousands for the tv with the best image quality, while the smart functions lose support in a few years and your tv is still fine. Also a reason some people dont connect their smart tv to the internet.

 

[Koeitje]

The one thing I would never allow as part of a high quality music system is a general-purpose computer of any description. They are simply not built for audio and offer little protection from RFI, etc.

Granted most modern electronics include aspects from the computer world, but they will / should be built with solely audio in mind with all that that entails.

Compute are OK as control devices that may host a control app, but the signal should never be let loose within a computer.

Personal opinion borne out by personal experience, but others may reach alternative conclusions.

This is complete and utter bullshit.

But I do wonder how you even listen to music these days, because everything is mastered on computers. Just shows you have no actual understanding how any of this stuff even works.

 

[FrantzM]

The one thing I would never allow as part of a high quality music system is a general-purpose computer of any description. They are simply not built for audio and offer little protection from RFI, etc.

Granted most modern electronics include aspects from the computer world, but they will / should be built with solely audio in mind with all that that entails.

Compute are OK as control devices that may host a control app, but the signal should never be let loose within a computer.

Personal opinion borne out by personal experience, but others may reach alternative conclusions.

This is complete and utter bullshit.

But I do wonder how you even listen to music these days, because everything is mastered on computers. Just shows you have no actual understanding how any of this stuff even works.

I wanted to post something about this @Hear Here and you answered more strongly than I was about to but ...
...
....
Yeah, I agree.



Peace.

 

[suttondesign]

The Dutch 8c are wondrous. I doubt that a home speaker can be much better for a reasonably sized room. I am not running them now because I prefer a Linkwitz dipole, but my Dutch were superior in some ways. I also have two sizes of neumanns (kid has one of them, my office the other), but the Dutch cardioid works better with ordinary rooms.

I have written at asr before that my only gripe with any smallish mains is rising bass distortion at the extreme low end. But my god, had there been a Dutch 8c in, say, 1990, we would have freaked.

I used to be a Dutch dealer, btw, but despite my legitimate zeal I couldn’t move them what with discount hunters, on the one hand, and DAC crazies on the other.

I know Amir thinks big speakers have a bigger soundstage, but I cannot speak to that since I have never had the luxury of big ones like his tallboy Revels.

Anyone lucky enough to have the excellent, novel approach represented by the Dutch is in a rarefied realm, though I meet few people who would spend half as much on audio. And those I do are usually into much, much more expensive gear anyhow and won’t consider an integrated solution (I’m looking at you, PNW audiophiles).

Anyhoo, my dos centivos.

 

[nc535]

The only network in my house is wifi. I see there are any number of RJ45 to wifi bridges available on Amazon and elsewhere for not very much money. Do they work painlessly with the 8C? Even if so, it would be so much better if wifi were integrated in the 8C

 

[Purité Audio]

I know hat some managed switches can cause issues but D&D have a list of products that have proven to work.
Perhaps Martijn or Jannis can elucidate?
Keith

 

[Hear Here]

This is complete and utter bullshit.

But I do wonder how you even listen to music these days, because everything is mastered on computers. Just shows you have no actual understanding how any of this stuff even works.

No bullshit at all.

If you bought a piece of hi-fi gear of whatever type that included a power supply for example, and you took off the lid and peered inside, what would you think if you saw a ps similar to the one in your laptop? You'd likely be appalled and return it to your dealer in disgust. The same applies to other component parts of hi-fi gear that may have been adopted from the computer industry - they should be designed and built solely for audio excellence - something completely unnecessary and absent in general purpose computers such as your laptop.

If you are prepared to accept this sort of corner-cutting, I doubt you've ever heard what good equipment is capable of delivering.

 

[BDWoody]

If you are prepared to accept this sort of corner-cutting, I doubt you've ever heard what good equipment is capable of delivering.

What utter nonsense.

 

[GDK]

Alright, you’ve heard it here first: this particular issue will be resolved in 2025

Fantastic news! Thanks Martjin.

 

[Puddingbuks]

I get where this "beef" is coming from. The 8c does have a subwoofer output, but the setup interface still isn’t developed yet, as other features have taken priority. That said, I’m curious: what other speakers are you comparing it to that do offer a fully configurable subwoofer output? There are very few out there, if any.

Alright, you’ve heard it here first: this particular issue will be resolved in 2025.

That would be great.

I now use a minidsp shd studio to integrate two 15 inch subwoofers. But I have the older 8m model without the 2 woofers in the back which is out of production. Having a working and configurable sub output makes the setup simpler.

I also have Kef LS60 which has a configurable sub output.

 

[Purité Audio]

That’s great but 2025 is quite close!
Keith

 

[Emlin]

That’s great but 2025 is quite close!
Keith

But the end of 2025 is quite a way off...

 

[Koeitje]

No bullshit at all.

If you bought a piece of hi-fi gear of whatever type that included a power supply for example, and you took off the lid and peered inside, what would you think if you saw a ps similar to the one in your laptop? You'd likely be appalled and return it to your dealer in disgust. The same applies to other component parts of hi-fi gear that may have been adopted from the computer industry - they should be designed and built solely for audio excellence - something completely unnecessary and absent in general purpose computers such as your laptop.

If you are prepared to accept this sort of corner-cutting, I doubt you've ever heard what good equipment is capable of delivering.

Again more bullshit. I suggest you stop typing, you are making a fool out of yourself.

My amplifier has a laptop level power supply. It is a switching power supply to those find in PCs. But it did provide, back when it was released, state of the art performance. Current state of the art performance amplifiers still use the same power supply. The same goes for all my D/A converters, they run off USB chargers. Yet they all provide state of the art performance.

If you are worried about those kind of power supplies you probably have electronics that are badly designed, because they can indeed suffer from issues. But for any competently engineered product it doesn't really make a difference at all. It is the same reason why super sensitive hardware such as CPUs, GPUs and RAM can run on those power supplies.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Yeah, I hear you. Who wouldn’t want a lower price? That said, the 8c is expensive to produce. When you consider what you’re getting, it’s a fair price. In fact, many of our hi-fi customers switched to the 8c from much more expensive and complex setups. Surprisingly, not only did they simplify their systems, but in most cases, they also noticed an improvement in sound quality. Therefore, depending on your perspective, you could even argue it offers great value for money.



Latency isn't an issue here. In low-latency mode, it's around 3 milliseconds, about the same time it takes sound to travel one meter through air. In linear-phase mode, it's about 30 ms, but that's expected if you want 4th order crossovers and flat phase response. The crossover filters cause some frequencies to be delayed relative to others. The phase-linearization filter simply delays all frequencies equally, so they align perfectly in time.

The internal DSP computation time is negligible. Most of the 3 ms delay comes from the ADC and DAC.




I get where this "beef" is coming from. The 8c does have a subwoofer output, but the setup interface still isn’t developed yet, as other features have taken priority. That said, I’m curious: what other speakers are you comparing it to that do offer a fully configurable subwoofer output? There are very few out there, if any.

Alright, you’ve heard it here first: this particular issue will be resolved in 2025.



Sounds like we need to clear up the fog. What is unclear about it? Perhaps I can help lift the haze.



I agree in principle. I’ve done plenty of ABX blind tests comparing Spotify's 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis to lossless. When focusing on specific half-second audio fragments, I could reliably tell the difference after some practice. But during normal listening, the difference is imperceptible to me.

Why don't you release a smaller and cheaper version of the 8C like Kii did with Kii 7?

 

[Laagman]

Why don't you release a smaller and cheaper version of the 8C like Kii did with Kii 7?
View attachment 393840

They are going to.

 

[ahofer]

You will need a computer to run the Roon core and the computer and the 8Cs must be on the same network.
Computer rj45 cables to 8Cs that’s it.
The XLR inputs can be either analogue or digital, you just use them like a traditional speaker with a preamp or dac or daw.
Roon ready/ Spotify connect are just one option.
Keith

Is there any dynamic loudness capability (@Marti Mensink )? I use a ROPIEEXL/RME/NAD/Harbeth setup now, and only the RME is out in the open, but the 8C would ultimately be a good solution for my NYC apartment. I also put my TV through the system.

 

[Somafunk]

No bullshit at all.

If you bought a piece of hi-fi gear of whatever type that included a power supply for example, and you took off the lid and peered inside, what would you think if you saw a ps similar to the one in your laptop? You'd likely be appalled and return it to your dealer in disgust. The same applies to other component parts of hi-fi gear that may have been adopted from the computer industry - they should be designed and built solely for audio excellence - something completely unnecessary and absent in general purpose computers such as your laptop.

If you are prepared to accept this sort of corner-cutting, I doubt you've ever heard what good equipment is capable of delivering.

Jesus Christ…… you do talk some utter bullshit

Why are you here exactly?

 

[ahofer]

If you are prepared to accept this sort of corner-cutting, I doubt you've ever heard what good equipment is capable of delivering.

Here we go again. One of the more obnoxious Audiophile fallacies

A list of Audiophile Fallacies

I posted this in another thread, but I thought it might be useful to open source some more ideas in a separate thread. “To be a genius is to be misunderstood. But to be misunderstood is not to be a genius”. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson ..nor is being hard to understand - me. Ad Vinum Audio is like...

audiosciencereview.com

Ad Aures Aureas
The Golden Ear fallacy, usually trotted out by people with severe age-related hearing loss. Tales of extraordinary audio discernment with few witnesses accompanied by a violent allergy to any kind of blind-testing. Ad Difficile Nito is a common co-morbidity when cornered.

A variation of this is the “I don’t need blind tests because the differences were so obvious” (to my Golden Ears..(. This is a sure sign of mismatched levels, broken equipment, or rhetorical desperation.