I am a convert. Goodbye snake oil!

[voodooless]

Pretty sure confirmation bias doesn't work like that.

Sure it does. If you can be biased to hear something when there is nothing, you can hear nothing when there is something.

In any case a DBT can't prove a negative.

You don’t have to.

 

[antcollinet]

Sure it does. If you can be biased to hear something when there is nothing, you can hear nothing when there is something.

Perceptive bias works in specific ways - causing alteration to the perception of sound that doesn't exist in the sound reaching our ears. A good example is the Mcgurk effect. To do what you are saying means the specific change would have to be such to exactly cancel out a difference that exists - I am not sure it can do that, and I've not seen any studies that shows it can - though I am willing to be educated if you have any.

You don’t have to.

If I believe I can hear no difference, even when there is one to be heard - how can a DBT demonstrate in any way that is the case - as opposed to my particular hearing being unable to detect that difference - or even that I am just unwilling to try. What is the point of the DBT?



EDIT (and bottom line) - in any case - given what we know about the measurements, the null hypothesis is that there is no difference to be heard. When someone says they can't hear a difference it is illogical to question that statement, and ascribe it to bias.

 

[voodooless]

If I believe I can hear no difference, even when there is one to be heard - how can a DBT demonstrate in any way that is the case - as opposed to my particular hearing being unable to detect that difference - or even that I am just unwilling to try. What is the point of the DBT?

The point of making it double blind is to remove any bias. Now obviously, if you don’t actually try and just pick something at random, then you’re cheating the test and it is useless. If you actually try, it’s still valid.

In the end the staring premise is irrelevant to the outcome: the test will show if there is a difference to the person performing the test (under the prerequisite that they actually try).

 

[voodooless]

To do what you are saying means the specific change would have to be such to exactly cancel out a difference that exists - I am not sure it can do that, and I've not seen any studies that shows it can - though I am willing to be educated if you have any.

It seem my AI pall has found some research on the matter, and indeed confirms what I eluded to. Don’t have time to go though this is detail, but it seems quite fascinating.

 

[Vacceo]

Welcome... to the desert of the real.



Sorry, just don't get a lot of chances to quote that line. But really, welcome to the "boring" but ultimately much more satisfying side, where there are only so many ways to improve your system, they don't actually cost that much in most cases, they aren't glamorous, exotic, or artisanal, but you can *know* your system is performing well, not just feel like it probably is. A big difference and a very positive one.

Like @voodooless suggests, next stop on this train is measuring your system and making real tangible progress when you change something.

"The simulacra does not hide the truth, but the absence of truth". Cannot love Baudrillard enough.

 

[DanielT]

View attachment 511807

I couldn’t help myself, I had to find the comment and respond

You have to listen to the cables properly to hear them:

(not me in the picture, it's Soundbrige (a DIY guy) joking me in the picture)


In any case, as long as the cables don't pick up noise and if the banana plugs and RCA plugs fit well in the jacks, I'm happy.

On principle, because it's looks nicer and reduces the risk of pick up noise, I try to have as short RCA cables as possible.

Regarding pick up noise. PA rigs have balanced cables/solutions when many and long cables are in use to reduce risk of that. But with that said, with home hifi you don't have a full-blown PA rig.
This thing with balanced in Hifi. Sometimes I wonder, is it really necessary? Is it an irrational sign of hifi nevosa if people want balanced in their home hifi? I don't know. I'm torn about it. If it's needed, it's needed, but how often is it really needed?

 

[antcollinet]

The point of making it double blind is to remove any bias. Now obviously, if you don’t actually try and just pick something at random, then you’re cheating the test and it is useless. If you actually try, it’s still valid.

In the end the staring premise is irrelevant to the outcome: the test will show if there is a difference to the person performing the test (under the prerequisite that they actually try).

I'll just reiterate my bottom line.

It seem my AI pall has found some research on the matter, and indeed confirms what I eluded to. Don’t have time to go though this is detail, but it seems quite fascinating.

I hope it has references to back it up.

 

[Mart68]

This thing with balanced in Hifi. Sometimes I wonder, is it really necessary? Is it an irrational sign of hifi nevosa if people want balanced in their home hifi? I don't know. I'm torn about it. If it's needed, it's needed, but how often is it really needed?

Mostly not needed. I'd suggest it probably is 'best practice' to use balanced and really all domestic equipment right from the start should have had balanced connections, but it didn't so here we are.

It is now becoming much more commonplace on domestic kit. Ironically due to the spreading myth that it intrinsically offers better sound quality and manufacturers don't want to lose a sale over it. See also - AES and I2S digital connections although as far as I'm aware they offer no benefit of any kind.

 

[voodooless]

I hope it has references to back it up.

It does, otherwise it’s pointless drivel

 

[Gorgonzola]

Must first snakeoil delusion to go was in the efficacy of expensive cables -- I nor heard or nor imagine any benefit of these as of ~20 years ago.

 

[Bren Derlin]

I feel lucky I never fell into the traps of audiophilia. I recently got into hobby after needing to upgrade some older equipment and stumbled across reviews on this site. Still took me a while to get over the attraction to products that were deemed to be ‘warm’ and ‘holographic’. But, eventually I realised that all the subjective jargon was horseshit. Different reviewers would say contradictory statements about the same product, and at times even contradict their own subjective observations.
It also seemed, at least to me, that a lot of the audiophile stuff verged toward magical thinking. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next fad is getting a shaman to come and bless an amplifier.


ive been buying Mogami cable by the meter because recently for diy cables. It’s pretty good, but I also buy cheaper stuff which isn’t far off in quality either. That being said it’s nice to pay a few bucks a metre for something made in Japan and maybe a bit better in terms of materials. Canare, also make nice cable.

The folks who get the holographic experience, positioned their speakers and their seating in the appropriate manner relating to each other. Those who didn't 'get it', have no idea how to position their speakers in relation to the seating. Or conversely, how to position their seating to take advantage of their room limitations for speaker placement.

 

[Petrushka]

The holographic experience is near field. Horn and waveguide speakers can extend the listening distance.

But the initial sound must overwhelm reflections.

 

[Indydan]

Another guy who thinks his sh1t doesn't smell is Danny from GR Research.
The guy thinks he is the only good speaker designer in the world! He over estimates the performance of his products. His latest project, speakers that he developed in collaboration with his muppet, Ron from NRD, has a magic Shunyata device in them. He claims it improves the sound quality...

He also claims his Uber something power conditioner dramatically improves sound. I would love to see one of these gizmos measured.

 

[voodooless]

When someone says they can't hear a difference it is illogical to question that statement, and ascribe it to bias.

No, it’s not illogical. A sincere report of “I can’t hear a difference” can still be influenced by bias, attention, or decision criteria. Questioning whether bias played a role is normal scientific practice.

 

[DanielT]

Mostly not needed. I'd suggest it probably is 'best practice' to use balanced and really all domestic equipment right from the start should have had balanced connections, but it didn't so here we are.

It is now becoming much more commonplace on domestic kit. Ironically due to the spreading myth that it intrinsically offers better sound quality and manufacturers don't want to lose a sale over it. See also - AES and I2S digital connections although as far as I'm aware they offer no benefit of any kind.

If it is needed, it is needed. It is just the default setting that it should always be balanced that I object to.

I mean now I have a cable digital out from WiiM Mini to my DAC and then short RCA to my amp. No audible problems from the cables that I can experience.But on the other hand, PMA is knowledgeable and this is what he says, #27:

Any generalization is difficult, the only "general advice" I would give is to use balanced interconnects everywhere.

RCA cables make no difference, that's what they say

.... really??? So, this is the "real life" test setup, very simple, however addressing common issues. Class I analog audio generator is the signal source, yes class I so the signal ground is connected with mains PE. Then we have RCA to RCA cable and USB soundcard, that is connected to the PC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[antcollinet]

No, it’s not illogical. A sincere report of “I can’t hear a difference” can still be influenced by bias, attention, or decision criteria. Questioning whether bias played a role is normal scientific practice.

Not when the science/engineering/measurements says there is no difference to be heard. If there is no difference to be heard, then someone hearing no difference is not doing so because of bias. They are not hearing a difference because there is no difference to be heard.

???Is it just me???

 

[RCVTech]

If it is needed, it is needed. It is just the default setting that it should always be balanced that I object to.

I mean now I have a cable digital out from WiiM Mini to my DAC and then short RCA to my amp. No audible problems from the cables that I can experience.But on the other hand, PMA is knowledgeable and this is what he says, #27:

Any generalization is difficult, the only "general advice" I would give is to use balanced interconnects everywhere.

RCA cables make no difference, that's what they say

.... really??? So, this is the "real life" test setup, very simple, however addressing common issues. Class I analog audio generator is the signal source, yes class I so the signal ground is connected with mains PE. Then we have RCA to RCA cable and USB soundcard, that is connected to the PC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

My understanding is the main point of the balanced circuit is that the audio ground is eliminated. Unbalanced circuits are more prone to hum from the mains but only if it is not properly addressed in both preamp and power amp. Some power amps are easier to drive with the doubled voltage the balanced input provides. At the same time, with unbalanced circuit you don't need to worry about pins 2 and 3 being exactly 180 degrees to each other.

 

[voodooless]

Not when the science/engineering/measurements says there is no difference to be heard. If there is no difference to be heard, then someone hearing no difference is not doing so because of bias. They are not hearing a difference because there is no difference to be heard.

???Is it just me???

I get what you say, but you don’t get to see the decision process, only the conclusion. Engineering can make one explanation overwhelmingly likely, but it can’t make human judgment magically bias-proof.

 

[antcollinet]

My understanding is the main point of the balanced circuit is that the audio ground is eliminated. Unbalanced circuits are more prone to hum from the mains but only if it is not properly addressed in both preamp and power amp. Some power amps are easier to drive with the doubled voltage the balanced input provides. At the same time, with unbalanced circuit you don't need to worry about pins 2 and 3 being exactly 180 degrees to each other.

It is not only about mains hum. Ground loops can carry noise currents of any type or source. Ground currents result in common mode noise which balanced connections can reject.

EG A common source of ground noise currents in setups that use them are PC's. Often confused as being "USB Power noise", it is simply the noise from powerful components (especially graphics cards) leaking to ground. This can result in high frequency hiss and whistles - often associated with what is on the display changing.

But as DanielT says if you are not experiencing audible noise - you don't need balanced connections.

A counter argument to that is - if you are purchasing new gear, you don't know if you will expereience ground issues with that gear. Personally I try to make sure balanced interconnect is an option - just in case. This is (would be if I purchased any) particularly the case with active speakers - where line level interconnect to them needs to be much longer than typical device to device connections.

 

[antcollinet]

I get what you say, but you don’t get to see the decision process, only the conclusion. Engineering can make one explanation overwhelmingly likely, but it can’t make human judgment magically bias-proof.

OK - I'm gonna back away slowly. Clearly we are not going to have a meeting of minds in this instance.