• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

I am a convert. Goodbye snake oil!

Impressive that the silver one managed climb up on top of the speaker :)
Look at all those quantum treated blue diamonds. It's no surprise that it is even more powerful than the other one which was treated with the colorless crystals.
It may well be that the one on the floor offers superb grounding though.
 
The late Scott Adams wrote that human beings are not logical by nature. We rationalise things all the time. He called it ‘The Dilbert Principle’ and we all, in some way or other, are affected. And we don’t like it when someone calls us out on it…

And nobody exemplified that more than Scott Adams himself (who became a true nutcase)
 
The problem with 'listening to an amplifier' is that you have to hook it up to some loudspeakers to do that, and then you have an interaction which in some combinations can cause audible issues.

IMO this is where the myth that amplifiers have an intrinsic 'sound' or 'tone' originates. Ironically that does not survive subjective appraisal. Just this week I was reading a thread about Naim amplifiers and there was this exchange:





Search for any reasonably popular amplifier and you can find the same polarisation of subjective opinion on the 'sonic character' of that amplifier.

(Not all class A amps have high output impedance or low damping factor. I have several that don't).

You bring up an issue I find fascinating about the concept of amplifiers having an intrinsic tone or character.

As I’ve mentioned many times I still use some old school Conrad Johnson tube amplification - Premier 12 monoblocks and Premier 16LS2 preamp.

This was from the period when Conrad Johnson amplifiers had a well-known reputation for a certain type of sound which included what people would typically describe as “a golden glow” or a sort of “bronze” tone or sometimes depending on the amp a caramel tone.

I was long fascinated with this because it’s what I hear, or at least perceive, and it seems such an incredibly widespread perception among so many audiophiles (at least among those comfortable in describing amplifiers in such subjective terms).

Fremer wrote in his review of the Conrad Johnson premier 12 amplifiers:

The overall sound, driving either the Audio Physic Virgos or the Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Pianos, was finely detailed yet rich, open, and transparent, with a lush, mesmerizing midband; deep, well-developed, yet punchy bass; and high frequencies that were fast and sparkly but never bright or aggressive.

The difficult transitions between the frequency extremes and the midrange were carefully accomplished, though the upper midrange exhibited a rich, golden bloom—a sonic bouquet—too subtle to be called a coloration but sufficiently pronounced to enrich brass, strings, female voices, alto sax, and hall ambience with an intoxicating glow
.”

I’d owned and tried various tube and solid state amplifiers and Fremer’s whole review is possibly the single most descriptive and accurate depiction of exactly what something sounds like to me (again in my perception I’m not making objective claims).

But here we get to what you are pointing out in terms of likely amplifier colorations.

If it’s purely an impedance interaction, then I would expect the amps to have a different character with different loudspeakers. But I’ve used the CJs with something like 20 different loudspeakers over the years, everything from easy to drive two ways, to low sensitivity MBLs to challenging impedances/power hungry speakers like various Thiels. And yet, especially when compared against solid state amplifiers I’d have on hand, the CJs always seem to bring the same characteristics to the sound: more rich, lush, rounded, textured, dense, smooth… everything sounds more “ organic” to me and less electronic and artificial. And there’s that slight “ golden glow” Fremer mentions that seems to sort of light up the timber and sound stage in a way that is really beautiful to my ears and actually sounds more realistic.

But why would there be such a persistent character if the main colorations are going to vary per speaker?

I’ve also seen it suggested that tube amplification softer clipping might be responsible for the character characteristic sound. But at least in my case that wouldn’t make sense since I’ve never played music very loud.

There’s the prospect of added harmonics. I’ve seen information that suggest that is plausible but other stuff that suggests it’s a bit of an overblown expectation in tube amplifiers.

The most obvious elephant in the room is simply some sort of bias or expectation effect. And though I’ve done blind tests down the years of equipment I have owned, a blind shootout between solid state and tube amplification with a sufficiently fast switching was something I pursued, but abandoned due to the complexity.

That’s why I was happy to realize when I bought a Benchmark LA4 solid state preamp to have as an extra preamp, that this would actually allow me to blind test my CJ tube preamp against the benchmark. Because in informal listening, that preamp also exhibited the tonal characteristics of the other CJ gear. (again something that I found kind of suspicious which is why I wanted to test my impressions).

So when I got around to the:

BLIND TEST DOCUMENTED HERE

…interestingly…yup… even under the blinded conditions when I would switch back-and-forth, there were all the CJ tuby characteristics…roundness of tone, lightened timbre/golden glow, added texture etc.

So that was fascinating. Not that I still know what it means. :-)

Just tonight, informally, I was comparing many tracks with my Denon AVR driving my stereo speakers vs my CJ gear, and also quick switching between the Benchmark preamp and CJ. And every time the experience was: SS amplification - better grip on the bass, more precise in almost every way, slightly cleaner, sometimes seems a bit more dynamic. Yet there was always a slight “canned” presentation, the feeling of the artificiality of the recordings. As soon as I switched in the CJ gear every single time many aspects just seemed to be more relaxed, natural and organic with a timbre that sounded both more vivid and more relaxed in the highs. Exactly the type of characteristics I observe when I listen to real life sounds. In particular when I played a recording, which has a closely mic’d male vocal quietly singing out of the left speaker, on the SS amps it sounded remarkably clear, but also slightly artificial and not quite the right tone/timbre to convince me of the reality. But as soon as the tube gear took over, it was like “ damn that’s a real human being singing right there.” The timbre was that of the human voice. The vocal sibilance sat back more naturally in balance with the voice etc. (I often do a test where I compare the timber of the sound coming from the loudspeakers with me, just snapping my fingers lightly clapping my hands, even just rubbing my hands together.
This is what organic sounds like when it’s real and in the room. And it immediately shows up the difference between that and what’s coming out of the speakers. When I have both the CJ amplifier and preamp playing, the timber coming from the speakers becomes a very good match for those little sounds I make in the room).

Anyway…. Whatever it is… whether it’s real technical audible differences, or purely a biased expectation effect, or some mix… I enjoy the hell out of the perception and so I’m going with it. :-)
 
Last edited:
It should be worded as, "SOME amplifiers have an intrinsic tone or character". Those amplifiers were designed to impart a character to the sound.

Yes. Though I was purposely echoing Mart68’s reference to the broader audiophile concept of virtually all amplifiers having their own sound - as we know a good portion extend that even to most solid state amplifiers (as exemplified by the Naim quotes as well).

My own take us to treat solid state amplification as a long solved design, and I expect the majority of them to sound identical (with all the caveats of speaker matching).

Though I admit to some curiosity: if (under blind conditions) it would be at all possible to tell the difference between my current Dennon AVR - 110w (from 2009) vs Benchmark power and preamps driving my loudspeakers.

The Benchmark stuff would certainly measure better, but my default is to guess the difference from my Denon would be inaudible. But I’m not totally sure. Maybe somebody can make a case that the extraordinarily low distortion of the Benchmark gear would have audible consequences (?)
 
You bring up an issue I find fascinating about the concept of amplifiers having an intrinsic tone or character.

As I’ve mentioned many times I still use some old school Conrad Johnson tube amplification - Premier 12 monoblocks and Premier 16LS2 preamp.

This was from the period when Conrad Johnson amplifiers had a well-known reputation for a certain type of sound which included what people would typically describe as “a golden glow” or a sort of “bronze” tone or sometimes depending on the amp a caramel tone.

I was long fascinated with this because it’s what I hear, or at least perceive, and it seems such an incredibly widespread perception among so many audiophiles (at least among those comfortable in describing amplifiers in such subjective terms).

Fremer wrote in his review of the Conrad Johnson premier 12 amplifiers:

The overall sound, driving either the Audio Physic Virgos or the Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Pianos, was finely detailed yet rich, open, and transparent, with a lush, mesmerizing midband; deep, well-developed, yet punchy bass; and high frequencies that were fast and sparkly but never bright or aggressive.

The difficult transitions between the frequency extremes and the midrange were carefully accomplished, though the upper midrange exhibited a rich, golden bloom—a sonic bouquet—too subtle to be called a coloration but sufficiently pronounced to enrich brass, strings, female voices, alto sax, and hall ambience with an intoxicating glow
.”

I’d owned and tried various tube and solid state amplifiers and Fremer’s whole review is possibly the single most descriptive and accurate depiction of exactly what something sounds like to me (again in my perception I’m not making objective claims).

But here we get to what you are pointing out in terms of likely amplifier colorations.

If it’s purely an impedance interaction, then I would expect the amps to have a different character with different loudspeakers. But I’ve used the CJs with something like 20 different loudspeakers over the years, everything from easy to drive two ways, to low sensitivity MBLs to challenging impedances/power hungry speakers like various Thiels. And yet, especially when compared against solid state amplifiers I’d have on hand, the CJs always seem to bring the same characteristics to the sound: more rich, lush, rounded, textured, dense, smooth… everything sounds more “ organic” to me and less electronic and artificial. And there’s that slight “ golden glow” Fremer mentions that seems to sort of light up the timber and sound stage in a way that is really beautiful to my ears and actually sounds more realistic.

But why would there be such a persistent character if the main colorations are going to vary per speaker?

I’ve also seen it suggested that tube amplification softer clipping might be responsible for the character characteristic sound. But at least in my case that wouldn’t make sense since I’ve never played music very loud.

There’s the prospect of added harmonics. I’ve seen information that suggest that is plausible but other stuff that suggests it’s a bit of an overblown expectation in tube amplifiers.

The most obvious elephant in the room is simply some sort of bias or expectation effect. And though I’ve done blind tests down the years of equipment I have owned, a blind shootout between solid state and tube amplification with a sufficiently fast switching was something I pursued, but abandoned due to the complexity.

That’s why I was happy to realize when I bought a Benchmark LA4 solid state preamp to have as an extra preamp, that this would actually allow me to blind test my CJ tube preamp against the benchmark. Because in informal listening, that preamp also exhibited the tonal characteristics of the other CJ gear. (again something that I found kind of suspicious which is why I wanted to test my impressions).

So when I got around to the:

BLIND TEST DOCUMENTED HERE

…interestingly…yup… even under the blinded conditions when I would switch back-and-forth, there were all the CJ tuby characteristics…roundness of tone, lightened timbre/golden glow, added texture etc.

So that was fascinating. Not that I still know what it means. :-)

Just tonight, informally, I was comparing many tracks with my Denon AVR driving my stereo speakers vs my CJ gear, and also quick switching between the Benchmark preamp and CJ. And every time the experience was: SS amplification - better grip on the bass, more precise in almost every way, slightly cleaner, sometimes seems a bit more dynamic. Yet there was always a slight “canned” presentation, the feeling of the artificiality of the recordings. As soon as I switched in the CJ gear every single time many aspects just seemed to be more relaxed, natural and organic with a timbre that sounded both more vivid and more relaxed in the highs. Exactly the type of characteristics I observe when I listen to real life sounds. In particular when I played a recording, which has a closely mic’d male vocal quietly singing out of the left speaker, on the SS amps it sounded remarkably clear, but also slightly artificial and not quite the right tone/timbre to convince me of the reality. But as soon as the tube gear took over, it was like “ damn that’s a real human being singing right there.” The timbre was that of the human voice. The vocal sibilance sat back more naturally in balance with the voice etc. (I often do a test where I compare the timber of the sound coming from the loudspeakers with me, just snapping my fingers lightly clapping my hands, even just rubbing my hands together.
This is what organic sounds like when it’s real and in the room. And it immediately shows up the difference between that and what’s coming out of the speakers. When I have both the CJ amplifier and preamp playing, the timber coming from the speakers becomes a very good match for those little sounds I make in the room).

Anyway…. Whatever it is… whether it’s real technical audible differences, or purely a biased expectation effect, or some mix… I enjoy the hell out of the perception and so I’m going with it. :-)
I recall you mentioning your CJ blind test before and it is interesting. My post is being taken a little out of context since we weren't talking about tube amps but solid state.

I did use a tube pre for a few years and an integrated for a short period of time. I abandoned the tube pre as I thought it was coloured and I got bored of having that same colouration applied to everything. The integrated just didn't have enough power (8 watts).

I don't think it impossible that the distortion spectrum of some tube amps can have a 'signature' that is audible, albeit subtle.

I have since started collating a collection of diametrically opposed subjective opinions on the 'sound' of specific solid state amps, I already have come across several without any deliberate searching.

Here is the most recent:

 
I have since started collating a collection of diametrically opposed subjective opinions on the 'sound' of specific solid state amps, I already have come across several without any deliberate searching.
looking forward to your findings! (honestly sounds fun)
 
I recall you mentioning your CJ blind test before and it is interesting. My post is being taken a little out of context since we weren't talking about tube amps but solid state.

I did use a tube pre for a few years and an integrated for a short period of time. I abandoned the tube pre as I thought it was coloured and I got bored of having that same colouration applied to everything. The integrated just didn't have enough power (8 watts).

I don't think it impossible that the distortion spectrum of some tube amps can have a 'signature' that is audible, albeit subtle.

I have since started collating a collection of diametrically opposed subjective opinions on the 'sound' of specific solid state amps, I already have come across several without any deliberate searching.

Here is the most recent:

I’m relatively new to the hobby, and these kind of contradictions, as well as contradictory statements within many reviews, are what made me realise how unreliable the vast body of audio related content is. I pretty much only look here now for audio related advice/opinion.
 
And nobody exemplified that more than Scott Adams himself (who became a true nutcase)
His cancellation by the liberal loons was a disgrace.
His death was a great loss to cubicle engineers everywhere.
Great talent and bloke.
Sadly missed.
RIP
 
Most gear related hobbies and hobbyists go full circle.
You start off with crap, get suckered in, race past, ok, then decent, then great then pinnacle only to come to the realisation that crap was actually ok and good is good enough.
The money is in the selling of the idea that you always need more or better.

Age shows you that's usually folly.
 
I’m relatively new to the hobby, and these kind of contradictions, as well as contradictory statements within many reviews, are what made me realise how unreliable the vast body of audio related content is. I pretty much only look here now for audio related advice/opinion.
Like many of us old enough to have come up on the audio magazines rather than the internet I always took for granted that amplifiers had a 'tone' in the same way musical instruments do. It wasn't until I came across audio forums that I started to question that.

In particular there was a spirited debate about whether the NAD 3020 or the A&R A60 was the better amplifier. The opinions on the 'sonic character' of each were so different and opposing that it made me curious. Preference amongst the contributors was split about 50-50.
 
Like many of us old enough to have come up on the audio magazines rather than the internet I always took for granted that amplifiers had a 'tone' in the same way musical instruments do. It wasn't until I came across audio forums that I started to question that.

In particular there was a spirited debate about whether the NAD 3020 or the A&R A60 was the better amplifier. The opinions on the 'sonic character' of each were so different and opposing that it made me curious. Preference amongst the contributors was split about 50-50.
Following on from the objectivity/subjectivity argument last week, I got to thinking back at how I started in HIFI and what were my influences in making my equipment purchases.
My main source of info was HIFI choice. On any review was a small corner with a graph of something fuzzy and a few specs but the main thrust was utterly subjective. Funny enough, looking back, they wrapped this subjectivity in a cloak of blind testing which objectively, did nothing.
Reading the reviews on here is quite the trip when thinking back to how things were.
I was a young man back then and utterly suckered in by the hifi woo and Voodoo.

How times change.
 
Like many of us old enough to have come up on the audio magazines rather than the internet I always took for granted that amplifiers had a 'tone' in the same way musical instruments do. It wasn't until I came across audio forums that I started to question that.

In particular there was a spirited debate about whether the NAD 3020 or the A&R A60 was the better amplifier. The opinions on the 'sonic character' of each were so different and opposing that it made me curious. Preference amongst the contributors was split about 50-50.
one of my childhood friends had a Dad who was a hifi writer/reviewer and I remember he was always measuring speakers and what not with fancy looking microphone. I think that also gave me an impression that it was expected that any reviewer should measure stuff. So when I recently started getting interested in hifi, I was somewhat surprised and frustrated when reading subjectivist reviews.

I have great memories going to my mate’s place and watching movies and listening to music in his Dad’s study. He was pretty good with letting us chill there and play with the gear.
 
I have great memories going to my mate’s place and watching movies and listening to music in his Dad’s study.
Likewise! His parents were doctors and could afford a VCR back when they were serious money. Although they didn't approve of watching TV so only had a small set in the study with the said VCR so they could 'Tape the opera broadcasts on Channel 4'.

There was also a fancy hi-fi in there although my recollection was that it didn't sound that good.
 
Following on from the objectivity/subjectivity argument last week, I got to thinking back at how I started in HIFI and what were my influences in making my equipment purchases.
My main source of info was HIFI choice. On any review was a small corner with a graph of something fuzzy and a few specs but the main thrust was utterly subjective. Funny enough, looking back, they wrapped this subjectivity in a cloak of blind testing which objectively, did nothing.
Reading the reviews on here is quite the trip when thinking back to how things were.
I was a young man back then and utterly suckered in by the hifi woo and Voodoo.

How times change.
There was an owner of a UK manufacturer who attended some of the Hi-Fi Choice loudspeaker blind tests and had some amusing stories to tell.

Small standmount speakers being mistaken for large towers, large towers being mistaken for the small speakers. Company reps who could not identify their own speaker. Makes you realise just how much the whole industry is smoke and mirrors.

Lucky for me I had no money when I was younger. If I had I would undoubtably have blown it on buying expensive 'well reviewed' equipment for little or no benefit. I still see people doing that today.
 
I have since started collating a collection of diametrically opposed subjective opinions on the 'sound' of specific solid state amps, I already have come across several without any deliberate searching.

Here is the most recent:


Fun hobby.

But if it’s made to build up a case against the golden ear audiophile claims that even solid state amplifiers tend to sound different,
“ system synergy” is also part of their belief system, and so they will say “of course a solid state amplifier may sound one way in a certain system, but another way in another system.”

Slippery little devils :-)
 
Fun hobby.

But if it’s made to build up a case against the golden ear audiophile claims that even solid state amplifiers tend to sound different,
“ system synergy” is also part of their belief system, and so they will say “of course a solid state amplifier may sound one way in a certain system, but another way in another system.”

Slippery little devils :-)
Actually according to my observations that doesn't happen. What usually happens is that the discussion simply moves on as though the absurd discontinuity never occurred.
 
Hello everyone. I have recently gotten off the high end audio bandwagon.
It all started when I replaced my expensive Naim system, with the Wiim Amp Ultra. The little Wiim comes pretty close to the former Naim system in terms of sound quality. It beats it severely in form and function!
I then started asking myself if some of my other beliefs about high end audio could be challenged. I was a ferocious believer in cables and accessories, to improve sound quality. I believe I wanted to hear improvements with more expensive gear and accessories.
I started removing expensive cables from my system, and replacing them with stock cheap cables. I then listened with what I beleive to be an open mind.
There was absolutley no difference! The expensive cables look nice, but they don't improve sound quality.
I think Amir, Gene (from Audioholics) and others have been correct all these years...

Didn't you post an article on audiophilestyle about this recently? I just searched for it and couldn't find it.

My last two postings on that forum were taken down within minutes. The first was about Claude (an AI Chatbot) being an objectivist. It was actually a fascinating discussion with an AI tool.

Yesterday I posted a follow-up to an article I published on Medium 10 years ago, titled "Truth, Lies and Fraud in the Audiophile World". In the follow-up, I talked about the similarities between the high-end audio world and U.S. politics today. Chris took that article down in less than 5 minutes.

I posted the new article on ASR yesterday, but was unaware of the forum rules, where I needed to include a summary instead of just a link. Lesson learned!
 
Yesterday I posted a follow-up to an article I published on Medium 10 years ago, titled "Truth, Lies and Fraud in the Audiophile World". In the follow-up, I talked about the similarities between the high-end audio world and U.S. politics today. Chris took that article down in less than 5 minutes.

If it had any political content, it would be taken down here as well.
 
Back
Top Bottom