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I am a convert. Goodbye snake oil!

It's very hard to educate people who don't want to be educated. It seems more likely that the work of our politicians, enriching their billionaire masters by impoverishing the rest of us, is having an effect.
once someone has already hitched their wagon to the cable myths, they're almost completely intractable. But the work done here and other places has successfully punctured those myths for a generation of new consumers. It's beautiful.
 
I think when high end power cables arrived, that was a wtf moment when I realised the whole genre had” jumped the shark” .
And I started to back track trough old magazines etc , late seventies where not to bad ads where about thd and performant Japanese hifi . A couple years later it was British stuff made by a man in a shed that bent two pieces of sheet metal and made for example sugden a20 :)
 
I think when high end power cables arrived, that was a wtf moment when I realised the whole genre had” jumped the shark” .
And I started to back track trough old magazines etc , late seventies where not to bad ads where about thd and performant Japanese hifi . A couple years later it was British stuff made by a man in a shed that bent two pieces of sheet metal and made for example sugden a20 :)
For me it was being introduced to a set of bubble packed fancy interconnects by a salesman/friend. He started to go into his line but when he noticed the look I was giving him his voice kind of trailed off. We never talked about it again.
 
I think when high end power cables arrived, that was a wtf moment when I realised the whole genre had” jumped the shark” .
And I started to back track trough old magazines etc , late seventies where not to bad ads where about thd and performant Japanese hifi . A couple years later it was British stuff made by a man in a shed that bent two pieces of sheet metal and made for example sugden a20 :)
Wow 3200 funti for simple 2 way single-ended Class A amplifier...https://www.audiolounge.co.uk/sugden-a21-signature-amplifier/
This caught my eye.
The result was an amplifier of extended and more controlled bass and treble but still retaining the wonderfully detailed mid-range of the original design. The amplifier became the A21a, a reference amplifier on many continents.
This is A21 second generation...
Is it worth the money?
 
Wow 3200 funti for simple 2 way single-ended Class A amplifier...https://www.audiolounge.co.uk/sugden-a21-signature-amplifier/
This caught my eye.
The result was an amplifier of extended and more controlled bass and treble but still retaining the wonderfully detailed mid-range of the original design. The amplifier became the A21a, a reference amplifier on many continents.
This is A21 second generation...
Is it worth the money?
It's basically crap ;) build solely on mythology of Class A
 
Wow 3200 funti for simple 2 way single-ended Class A amplifier...https://www.audiolounge.co.uk/sugden-a21-signature-amplifier/
This caught my eye.
The result was an amplifier of extended and more controlled bass and treble but still retaining the wonderfully detailed mid-range of the original design. The amplifier became the A21a, a reference amplifier on many continents.
This is A21 second generation...
Is it worth the money?
I have the previous version which I think looks neater. 2nd hand. The new price could be inflated if it's hand built in eur country.
They seem to have a slight sound to them. A little extra bass bloom or lower DF. A bit softer up top. Subtle stuff.

I wouldn't really buy a new one. I like the front panel design though I end up using other regular amps

As for audiophile stuff; we had some great older speakers in the house, of a competent brand (not that I knew back then). Never really had hifi magazines or other stuff like that, had a scoffy attitude towards squeaky midrangey speaker drivers but nothing more than young people things.

The first time I really investigated was when Monster cable was in a shop and I went to search how/why this speaker wire cost so much.
Fast forward and I've plenty of Monster cable (I guess people bought this stuff heaps). It's interesting because it's different. Haven't detected a sonic difference though :)
 
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They seem to have a slight sound to them. A little extra bass bloom or lower DF. A bit softer up top. Subtle stuff.
That's how most people describe class A amplifiers.
In my opinion, the problem is that if you buy a speaker that is too neutral, like the first series of Elac debuts, you will get sound that is too dark or "house" sound if you know what I am thinking about...
As a rule, you don't know what to choose, at least I do with an amplifier like that.
Listening on your equipment is key to getting an idea how that speaker sound...
 
I have the previous version which I think looks neater. 2nd hand. The new price could be inflated if it's hand built in eur country.
They seem to have a slight sound to them. A little extra bass bloom or lower DF. A bit softer up top. Subtle stuff.

I wouldn't really buy a new one. I like the front panel design though I end up using other regular amps

As for audiophile stuff; we had some great older speakers in the house, of a competent brand (not that I knew back then). Never really had hifi magazines or other stuff like that, had a scoffy attitude towards squeaky midrangey speaker drivers but nothing more than young people things.

The first time I really investigated was when Monster cable was in a shop and I went to search how/why this speaker wire cost so much.
Fast forward and I've plenty of Monster cable (I guess people bought this stuff heaps). It's interesting because it's different. Haven't detected a sonic difference though :)
But before the internet in my younger days, I was perfectly fine with obviously flawed speakers made of chipboard and a tweeter that looked like a woofer)))
Screenshot_20260211_190056_Gallery.jpg
I still have them and how they have "smile" curve I used them as my front channel.
It's much easier to understand voices and this is definitely the best mid-channel setup I've had, even though the woofers are blocked by the OLED screen.
 
They seem to have a slight sound to them. A little extra bass bloom or lower DF. A bit softer up top. Subtle stuff.
How was this conclusion reached?
That's how most people describe class A amplifiers.
In my opinion, the problem is that if you buy a speaker that is too neutral, like the first series of Elac debuts, you will get sound that is too dark or "house" sound if you know what I am thinking about...
Sorry, no idea what you're saying here.


JSmith
 
That is the issue , normally performing amps does not have a sound , so there is no "matching" another myth i believed in the past .

..but it can be a self fulfilling prophecy , in the weird world of audiophilia of course you can get amps with "a sound" that also needs careful speaker impedance matching :) but that is just broken and not a part of normal operation imo . I no longer consider such products .
 
That is the issue , normally performing amps does not have a sound , so there is no "matching" another myth i believed in the past .

..but it can be a self fulfilling prophecy , in the weird world of audiophilia of course you can get amps with "a sound" that also needs careful speaker impedance matching :) but that is just broken and not a part of normal operation imo . I no longer consider such products .
Yes modern solid state amps doesn't have this problem, but the old one does with their high impedance, something that Erin talk and show difference that would cause such old amps in frequency response in almost every speaker that he review.
So it's definitely not a myth like cables...
But I agree that is old tehnology and should be avoid, but again so is vinil but people still buy records as much as CD's if not more...
 
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Yes modern solid state amps doesn't have this problem, but the old one does with their high impedance, something that Erin talk and show difference that would cause such old amps in frequency response in almost every speaker that he review.
So it's definitely not a myth like cables...
But I agree that is old tehnology and should be avoid, but again so is vinil but people still buy records as much as CD's if not more...
By modern its probably from the 1980's DF above 50 was common even then in a Japanese amp . On the other hand ( also shown by Erin and Amir ) this problem has returned with simpler class D amps that suffers from high impedance in the treble not a general low DF so variable response in the higher octaves
 
Yes modern solid state amps doesn't have this problem, but the old one does with their high impedance, something that Erin talk and show difference that would cause such old amps in frequency response in almost every speaker that he review.
So it's definitely not a myth.
But I agree that is old tehnology and should be avoid, but again so is vinil but people still buy records as much as CD's if not more...
The problem with 'listening to an amplifier' is that you have to hook it up to some loudspeakers to do that, and then you have an interaction which in some combinations can cause audible issues.

IMO this is where the myth that amplifiers have an intrinsic 'sound' or 'tone' originates. Ironically that does not survive subjective appraisal. Just this week I was reading a thread about Naim amplifiers and there was this exchange:





Search for any reasonably popular amplifier and you can find the same polarisation of subjective opinion on the 'sonic character' of that amplifier.

(Not all class A amps have high output impedance or low damping factor. I have several that don't).
 
By modern its probably from the 1980's DF above 50 was common even then in a Japanese amp . On the other hand ( also shown by Erin and Amir ) this problem has returned with simpler class D amps that suffers from high impedance in the treble not a general low DF so variable response in the higher octaves
I'm not an acoustic engineer by any means,but I would rather say that magical "DF" is a myth, considering how much resistance(impedance) the coil has and how much it changes during speaker excursion.
 
I'm not an acoustic engineer by any means,but I would rather say that magical "DF" is a myth, considering how much resistance the coil has and how much it changes during speaker excursion.
yes I just picked a value :) some amps has about 1000 in DF but as soon as you have speaker wires and crossover coils it's a meaningless spec .

Some say >100 dont worry about it , but i suspect it could be lower than that but 100 in DF is routinely achieved by most amps so why not ?
 
The problem with 'listening to an amplifier' is that you have to hook it up to some loudspeakers to do that, and then you have an interaction which in some combinations can cause audible issues.

IMO this is where the myth that amplifiers have an intrinsic 'sound' or 'tone' originates. Ironically that does not survive subjective appraisal. Just this week I was reading a thread about Naim amplifiers and there was this exchange:





Search for any reasonably popular amplifier and you can find the same polarisation of subjective opinion on the 'sonic character' of that amplifier.

(Not all class A amps have high output impedance or low damping factor. I have several that don't).
Yes I understand what you're talking about.
WHAT HI FI magazine still recommends Marantz amps for bright speakers and Yamaha for not so bright ones :facepalm:
 
I just came upon this contest to win a 3000 pound ethernet cable!

I entered the contest. Please enter! If one of us wins, we can send the cable to Amir for measurement and dissecting :-)
 
I love and loathe this analogy at the same time. Mostly loathe, because it's arrogant. As if humans and their experience being present was the ultimate determination between real and unreal.

The forest has other highly evolved animals too, many with better than human hearing. The wolf, the fox, the squirrel, many more, they all hear, see, and feel the tree falling. Their subjective experience is, in my book, just as valid as our long ape one. The quantum physics philosophical question (if "nobody" hears it, did the sound really happen) doesn't apply. Who is "somebody" really? Only a human? Does a gorilla count? If yes, why not a bird, or an insect? Physical reality does not need a human or generally "conscious" or "sapient" observer to be valid and physically true. This planet and universe and its physical reality existed long before our self-proclaimed "observer self" even evolved into existence. As much as I like philosophy in general, just as often it's just, frankly, head up in the clouds bullshit.

The tree falls. It makes a noise. It makes deep, scary, glorious bass. No matter whether anyone of our species observes it or not. Same with audio phenomena related to our human made gear. There's objective truth you can't get around, no matter your level of philosophical musings.
If you define noise as a periodic air disturbance, then the falling tree makes a noise, without regard to the presence of any listener. If you define noise as a human auditory perception only, then no noise would be made by the troubled tree if no one was in tree's vicinity during its demise.
 
If you define noise as a periodic air disturbance, then the falling tree makes a noise, without regard to the presence of any listener. If you define noise as a human auditory perception only, then no noise would be made by the troubled tree if no one was in tree's vicinity during its demise.
It has often been happening that people play instruments on a field and the cows or horses come and listen. That heavily suggests they can very well distinguish sound and noise, similar to how we do. The forest is, again, full of animals.
 
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