I am a convert. Goodbye snake oil!

[Indydan]

Hello everyone. I have recently gotten off the high end audio bandwagon.
It all started when I replaced my expensive Naim system, with the Wiim Amp Ultra. The little Wiim comes pretty close to the former Naim system in terms of sound quality. It beats it severely in form and function!
I then started asking myself if some of my other beliefs about high end audio could be challenged. I was a ferocious believer in cables and accessories, to improve sound quality. I believe I wanted to hear improvements with more expensive gear and accessories.
I started removing expensive cables from my system, and replacing them with stock cheap cables. I then listened with what I beleive to be an open mind.
There was absolutley no difference! The expensive cables look nice, but they don't improve sound quality.
I think Amir, Gene (from Audioholics) and others have been correct all these years...

 

[Laika2]

Amen

 

[aagstn]

It is liberating to know what can and can't improve your sound in a meaningful way. I focused my budget on speakers, headphones and room correction and just got affordable options for the rest that had the features I wanted.

 

[Indydan]

I just put up my cable risers for sale!
I can't believe I went down the rabbit hole so far. Glad to be back in the sane world.
I have met a few audiophiles recently, as I have been selling off gear. The hobby seems to attract people with certain mental illnesses. I don't mean to be insensitive or put down others, but a good number of audiophiles seem to have something going on...

 

[Indydan]

An interesting take on Google AI on cables:

Audiophiles often claim to hear differences in cables due to a combination of psychological factors (placebo effect, expectation bias), the desire for control over their system's sound, and, in rare, specific cases, subtle electrical differences in capacitance or resistance. While many believe expensive cables enhance sound, double-blind tests often reveal no significant, audible differences.
Key Reasons for Claimed Cable Differences

• Psychological Factors (Placebo & Bias): The expectation that an expensive cable sounds better, or the psychological impact of seeing a high-end, aesthetic component, can cause the brain to perceive a change, often known as expectation bias or the placebo effect.
• Confirmation Bias & Cognitive Dissonance: After investing significant money, listeners may unconsciously convince themselves they hear improvements to justify the cost.
• Electrical Property Differences: Cables differ in resistance, capacitance, and inductance. While generally minimal, these factors can slightly impact sound, particularly with tube gear or sensitive speakers.
• System Sensitivity: Some high-end systems, particularly those using amplifiers with high output impedance or very sensitive headphones/speakers, may reveal small, subtle variations in electrical signal, which might not be audible on more modest equipment.
• Time Domain Behavior: Some studies suggest that differences in how cables handle signals in the time domain (stability at different loads) might be more audible than traditional, minor frequency response changes.

Scientific Perspective

• Double-Blind Studies: Numerous studies have demonstrated that, under controlled, level-matched, double-blind conditions, listeners frequently cannot distinguish between affordable, well-constructed cables and highly expensive ones.
• Room Acoustics & Equipment: The consensus among audio engineers is that room acoustics and the, speakers themselves, have a massive impact on sound, while cables have a negligible, often immeasurable effect.
• Negligible Impact: For most, the sonic benefits of high-end cables are considered negligible compared to the impact of other components.

While some audiophiles insist on hearing differences, research points to the brain's tendency to create perceived improvements based on expectation and visual, tactile experience, rather than substantial sonic, scientific differences in the electrical signal.

 

[voodooless]

I just put up my cable risers for sale!

In return get yourself a measurement microphone and put that WiiM to actual good use!

 

[Mr. Widget]

I started removing expensive cables from my system, and replacing them with stock cheap cables. I then listened with what I beleive to be an open mind.
There was absolutley no difference! The expensive cables look nice, but they don't improve sound quality.

I'm shocked, shocked to hear this!

 

[kemmler3D]

Welcome... to the desert of the real.



Sorry, just don't get a lot of chances to quote that line. But really, welcome to the "boring" but ultimately much more satisfying side, where there are only so many ways to improve your system, they don't actually cost that much in most cases, they aren't glamorous, exotic, or artisanal, but you can *know* your system is performing well, not just feel like it probably is. A big difference and a very positive one.

Like @voodooless suggests, next stop on this train is measuring your system and making real tangible progress when you change something.

 

[voodooless]

I'm shocked, shocked to hear this!

Well, yeah. We might have a case of confirmation bias at work here, but just the other way around

To really test the hypothesis, a double blind test should be performed.

 

[Indydan]

Well, yeah. We might have a case of confirmation bias at work here, but just the other way around

To really test the hypothesis, a double blind test should be performed.

I was expecting someone to make that comment


No further testing needed. I am just as happy with my system sound wise, and it is much less expensive!

 

[MarkS]

Have you tried the Wiim's RoomFit room correction? If not, it's definitely worth checking out!

And don't be too down on yourself for having been on the audiophile bandwagon. We are all dependent on the information we get, and in that world, we are told that every tweak matters, the more expensive the better! And it's oh so easy to be wrongly convinced that the effects are real by confirmation bias etc.

 

[DanielT]

Hello everyone. I have recently gotten off the high end audio bandwagon.
It all started when I replaced my expensive Naim system, with the Wiim Amp Ultra. The little Wiim comes pretty close to the former Naim system in terms of sound quality. It beats it severely in form and function!
I then started asking myself if some of my other beliefs about high end audio could be challenged. I was a ferocious believer in cables and accessories, to improve sound quality. I believe I wanted to hear improvements with more expensive gear and accessories.
I started removing expensive cables from my system, and replacing them with stock cheap cables. I then listened with what I beleive to be an open mind.
There was absolutley no difference! The expensive cables look nice, but they don't improve sound quality.
I think Amir, Gene (from Audioholics) and others have been correct all these years...

...not even mud and bananas in a blind test....check here:

In a blind test, audiophiles couldn't tell the difference between audio signals sent through copper wire, a banana, or wet mud

https://www.tomshardware.com/speakers/in-a-blind-test-audiophiles-couldnt-tell-the-difference-between-audio-signals-sent-through-copper-wire-a-banana-or-wet-mud-the-mud-should-sound-perfectly-awful-but-it-doesnt-notes-the-experiment-creator This article from Toms Hardware is already a summary...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Indydan]

Another thing that got me to thinking it was all snake oil, was the ever increasing craziness of the products being put on the market. Okay, cables are one thing, but the gizmos and contraptions that have been released within the last 5-10 years is insane.

I have owned stuff from Shunyata, Nordost and Audioquest. But by far the worst offender has to be Synergistic Research. This company sells small thingies to put on components and on walls, to make things sound better! They also sell magic steel rods and boxes. They also sell a thing called "The Vibratron". Check it out if you want a good laugh!

 

[Mort]

It takes courage to accept one hasn't a golden ear and we wasted some money. And then insult to injury we are told to learn room EQ.

The reward is the freedom to just enjoy music because you know you have a measurably high system. One loses fewer brain cycles to unnecessary listening analysis.

And sometimes fewer moneys but that depends... I can still spend a bundle on well measuring gear.

 

[Multiway]

More differences are to be found in the transducers.
By that I mean speaker drivers and loudspeaker systems.
Maybe less so with room correction.

Perhaps cartridges if vinyl is involved

 

[Laika2]

In return get yourself a measurement microphone and put that WiiM to actual good use!

So true, room correction will do more to improve the sound of a system than any components other than different speakers. Even then they can be massively improved with proper room placement and room correction. It's ALWAYS THE ROOM.

 

[tccalvin]

I believe I wanted to hear improvements with more expensive gear and accessories.

The best reason to convert is the massive amount of money you can save!

 

[Bren Derlin]

Meanwhile on Steve Huff's Hifi youtube channel, this was a person's response to a youngling getting into the hobby....

You're not in the hobby. You just bought an appliance and use it. Most people can't tell the difference between $20 bottle of wine and $100 bottle of wine. The same with cigars. If you can't hear that cables sound different you're really into appliance buying category and your comments have no real value in a perspective of the hobby. You still may have a great taste in music and enjoy it immensely. It's just your input regarding hobby is worthless.

 

[SHB]

Hello everyone. I have recently gotten off the high end audio bandwagon...

Welcome to the land of mostly common sense.

Hey, listen, I buy good quality cables and equipment because of their sound and the build quality.

I spend extra for Mogami cables because:
• They’re the de facto standard in good recording studios
• They’re build quality is fantastic
• They have a "no-excuses" lifetime warranty (who else does that?)

While not cheap, they are definitely not snake oil. I pay for quality, not fashion or status. That philosophy goes for anything I buy, period, but most especially audio/electronic equipment of any kind.

There is so much non-scientific based crap in the world of audio equipment that it should be criminal. The dolts who subjectively review these products and attest to their efficacy in “sounds good to me” testimonials are almost as bad as the fraudsters selling the crap.

You’ll get none of that here.

 

[Chrispy]

Meanwhile on Steve Huff's Hifi youtube channel, this was a person's response to a youngling getting into the hobby....

You're not in the hobby. You just bought an appliance and use it. Most people can't tell the difference between $20 bottle of wine and $100 bottle of wine. The same with cigars. If you can't hear that cables sound different you're really into appliance buying category and your comments have no real value in a perspective of the hobby. You still may have a great taste in music and enjoy it immensely. It's just your input regarding hobby is worthless.

Can't enjoy the "hobby" unless deluded it seems, such a shame.